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Hatchbacks Chevrolet Metro/Geo Metro Chevrolet/Geo Metro
1692 messages, Last post on Oct 24, 2009 at 5:27 PM
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Replying to: shaggyman1 (May 28, 2009 11:08 am) The distributor ignition pickup is very sensitive to engine RPM, and is also prone to developing winding shorts in its sensor coil. If the sensor coil becomes shorted; it is very likely to create a situation where the engine will not have a spark below a particular RPM. In view of this; the observation you previously made about the engine only starting in first gear, but not in second; now sounds more like the ignition pickup is bad than either a module or a coil problem.
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I performed the test as suggested to check the alternator diode. Not even a hint of a spark when reattaching, and I did it a couple of times. Maybe my luck is changing with this baby. |
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Replying to: zaken1 (May 29, 2009 12:23 am) Last night I went through the checklist on AllData for "engine Cranks But Will Not Run" as far as the ignitor, but all the tests appear to be only for the circuit, without the ignitor connected. Circuits are good, and I'm going to RPL the ignitor with a salvage yard component, just to see if it helps. The sparks I do get are yellow, so I'm thinking either coil or igniter are not up to snuff, regardless of whatever other isuues there may be. I will try closing the plug gap to 30 first, and see if it kicks up, but I'm not confident that it will start in the one or two revolutions where I still have spark Having replaced the distributor, since the engine will not start, I can't properly set the timing- is 5 BTDC a good ballpark static time?
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Replying to: shaggyman1 (May 29, 2009 5:34 am) Regarding the crank sensor; I don't know how accurate the test procedures for that item are. I've heard of many instances where a defective crank sensor will cause the spark to shut down after the first few revolutions. Because of that; I would consider replacing the crank sensor; even though it tests good by the tests you have done. Hey; I also want to mention that Rock Auto just happens to have one remaining brand new Beck Arnley ignition module (which they call "Distributor Transistor Unit) for your car; which is a closeout purchase from some other warehouse. The regular price for that part is about $88; but they want $23.79 for this particular one. Beck Arnley is the highest quality supplier of import parts; and I have bought closeouts from Rock Auto before, and have never been disappointed by what I got. You can find this by going to www.rockauto.com looking up your car make, year, and model in their online catalog; selecting the engine size, and scrolling down to "ignition." There are separate listings for ignition modules and distributor transistor units; but they are really two different names for the same part. The Beck Arnley unit comes mounted on a metal heat sink.
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Put 3 new Autolite #63 plugs in, gapped at .030. Still just spins and will not start. I'm going to bed and worry about this tomorrow. Sigh.
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Replying to: zaken1 (May 29, 2009 8:28 pm) Replaced the Crankshaft Position Sensor- no change. Flashed the ECM to expunge any bad learned behavior- no change. Battery voltage with ignition 'ON' : 13.03V, 11.92V while cranking. (Drop of 1.11V) Coil + to Batt - : 12.89V at rest, 11.77V while cranking. (Drop of 1.12 V) Checking the Pickup coil in the distributor, I am getting 165 Ohms, rather than the 200 to 255 the book says, but I'm getting a pretty decent spark before it quits... Also, and probably more significant, the harness for the Crank Sensor should have a minimum of 1M Ohm on each side. I get the meg on one side, but the other comes out to only 24K Ohms. Thinking maybe ground was leaking through a fault in the ECM, I swapped for my other ECM- all same same. So My guess is that the Crankshaft Position Sensor is doing it's job, and the ECM is doing it's job, but the communication between them garbles the message and the ECM cuts off the spark after one camshaft rotation. (Why it would even have the idea of doing such a thing is a matter for another, more philosophical forum) Anyone know of a good reference for the wiring harness that gives connector colors and pin defs? (NO hair left- now gnashing teeth and looking for a good electrical engineer whom I can bribe with mead....)
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Replying to: shaggyman1 (May 30, 2009 4:07 pm) So I would definitely replace the pickup coil before doing anything else. Did you read the 24K resistance on one side of the crank sensor harness while the harness was plugged into the ECM? I don't believe that is how they intended it to be tested. Try disconnecting the harness plug from the ECM and then checking the resistance... I believe this will solve your problem; but since you asked about detailed wiring diagrams; there are two excellent ones out there. One is in the Chevrolet factory service manual for the 1996 Metro; and the other is in the Mitchell electrical systems manual for 1996 model year vehicles. The Mountain View, CA public library has both of those books. If your local public library does not have either one; they may be able to order one from the regional warehouse for your County library system. You can also buy those manuals online (but Mitchell manuals are very pricey). A friendly garage may let you Xerox those diagrams from their manual (if they have one). Or you can bribe someone to Xerox them from a library that has the manuals.
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Replying to: kreuzer (Apr 07, 2008 8:01 am) This is where an odd grinding noise comes in sounding like a manual trans being shifted without the use of the clutch. Mash the gas it stops but the whole time accelerating it makes a noise like a turbo charging up. Any Idea what this maybe? 
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Replying to: annielulu (May 30, 2009 12:14 am) I hope you had the fuel pump fuse in place when you tried to start the engine, after putting the new plugs in it. If the fuse was not in; the engine would not have fired. I suggested removing the fuse so that the engine would not flood when you were doing spark tests or other tests which did not require the engine to run. But the fuel pump definitely needs to be running when you try to start the car (unless it is already severely flooded). But it would not be flooded if it has sat for more than a few hours. It is also important to wait until the pump sound stops, after you turn the key on to the position where the warning lights on the dashbard come on; before turning the key the rest of the way to activate the starter. If you try to start it before the pump stops running; the engine will be starved for fuel and will probably not fire. Since you are getting a steady (albeit possibly weak) spark; I believe the .030" plug gap should have eliminated the possibility of a weak spark being the cause of the problem. So that brings us back to potential fuel system problems. From the symptoms you originally posted (engine quitting as soon as you give it any throttle) it seems very likely that your fuel filter has plugged up, or the fuel pump has gone bad (even though you can hear the pump running). So I'd like to see whether the fuel pressure test you once did would now still produce a strong stream. If there is now little or no fuel flow; the first thing I would do is to replace the fuel filter. It is underneath the car, on the driver's side, just in front of the fuel tank (about even with the front edge of the rear tire). There is a sheet metal cover under the filter and fuel pump; which is held on by two bolts. This can be a messy job; as fuel is likely to run out of the hoses as soon as they are disconnected. To minimize the likelihood of fuel leakage; be sure to remove the fuel pump fues, and then turn the key on briefly, to bleed of any residual line pressure. Also briefly remove the fuel tank cap, to let any air pressure escape; and then put the cap back on before disconnecting any fuel lines. If you have to leave one or both fuel lines disconnected for any length of time; a clean 1/4 inch diameter bolt can be used to plug the line. I hope this helps!!! |
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Thank you Zaken1. Yes I did have the fuse in when I tried to start it after gapping the plugs as you suggested, but, alas-no start. I haven't worked on the car for 2 days and I am getting discouraged to the point that I hate to even try to start it. All I do is run the battery down. So I'm going to have to jump it next time I try. The last time I tried to start it, when I took the key out-it just kept on running. I had to pull the negative battery terminal off to shut it down. I know that's bad for the alternator, but what else could I do.Whenever the battery is run down it does this key thing. I'll try the gas check for fuel flow tomorrow. What's the best way to do it. I did it before, but it was awhile ago and I forgot how to do it. Which line is the best to disconnect to examine the fuel flow. I guess that at some point I could pull the gas fuse and dump some gas into it at some point, but I'm afraid to put too much in and flood it. About how much should I prime it with-1 oz, 2 oz? Should the little throttle flap be open (held open with a screwdriver) when trying to start it after priming, or should it be closed. Does the air filter have to be connected to it after priming and before trying to start it then. Somewhere I think I read that if the air filter assembly is not on it the sensor will make the mixture too rich? I guess when I check the fuel pressure by disconnecting the feed line, it will confirm that the fuel pump is good or bad. Also, the fuel filter, right. I still haven't replaced the coil. Keeping the aforementioned in mind, if all these things check out what the heck could I check next???????? I have a new belt and timed it by lining up the little white mark with the zero on the timing indicator-and having the rotor pointing straight up at 12 o'clock. Rotor and cap are new, plugs are new, plug wires are new, battery was new (now discharged), all grounds and connections are tight. This little car is more complicated to me than any other car I ever worked on. It's a good little car when it runs but has so many sensors, electrics, etc. I liked working on cars 40 years ago when all you needed was hand tools. Thanks much for your latest response. It gives me renewed impetus to try again.
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