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#1582 of 1696 Re: Zaken1 [annielulu] by zaken1 May 28, 2009 (11:40 pm)
Replying to: annielulu (May 28, 2009 11:13 pm) The brand of plugs you have is E3; E 3.46 is the heat range of an E3 plug. They may be manufactured by Bosch for the E3 company; but Bosch does not sell them themselves. Those plugs would be very difficult to fire; because they use an open chamber ground electrode. So please get the plugs I suggested. If your engine runs with a smaller plug gap; you can probably get by with it as is for a while. How long that while lasts remains to be seen.
#1583 of 1696 Zaken1 by annielulu May 28, 2009 (11:48 pm)
Roger-Wilco-Over & Out.   Thank you profusely.
#1584 of 1696 Re: Metro LSI [annielulu] by zaken1 May 29, 2009 (12:04 am)
Replying to: annielulu (May 28, 2009 11:37 pm) Battery cables do not melt their insulation for no reason. If the cable was not in contact with a hot object; it sounds like there was an electrical short somewhere in the vehicle; which drew a humongous amount of current through the cable. I don't expect the cable was damaged by the heat; but there is a good chance the short was in the alternator; and the alternator now has a shorted diode in it. Alternator diodes can be instantly destroyed if a battery cable is disconnected while the engine is running. They are not guaranteed to be destroyed; but there is a high likelihood that happened. And the effect of a trashed alternator could keep the battery chronically less than fully charged; as well as making the engine harder to start by draining off some of the power that normally would go to the coil. If the battery cable overheated at the time you began having starting problems; I expect there was a connection between those two events.   You can make a crude test for a shorted alternator diode by disconnecting either one of the battery cables for a minute. Then touch that cable briefly back to the battery post it was attached to. If there is a spark when it touches; there probably is a bad diode in the alternator. (but it may be normal to see a tiny spark; I'm saying that a more substantial spark means there is a bad diode.) This would gradually drain your battery overnight; unless the diode has by now been completely burned through. But even so; it still would not be fully charging the battery. When the alternator works properly; there should NEVER be a need to recharge the battery (unless you leave the lights on, or something similar).
#1585 of 1696 Metro LSI by annielulu May 29, 2009 (12:14 am)
I copy what you posted regarding the alternator/battery ground scenario.   All I can add is that the present battery is brand new. Maybe I got lucky, as I have really asked a lot of this battery in the last week or so, trying to start, etc. It seems to work ok, really spins it over very well until at some point, it gets weaker as I keep trying to start the car. Anyway, the next day when I try to start the car again-it performs very admirably. If I get the car running, I'll make sure I get it checked, charged, etc to keep it in good condition. I will check out the alternator as you suggested. For now, my next step is to put in the plugs you suggested, with your recommended gap, and see what happens. If it's a no go, then I guess its new coil time.   Thanks.
#1586 of 1696 Re: Distributor Broken [shaggyman1] by zaken1 May 29, 2009 (12:23 am)
Replying to: shaggyman1 (May 28, 2009 11:08 am) It is important to be careful about what words we use, when describing a car problem. Some later model cars have crankshaft position sensors and camshaft position sensors; but the 95 Metro 3 cyl has neither of those. When I first read your post, I didn't think twice about it; but on reflection, I now realize that what you probably meant by the "crankshaft rotation sensor" is the distributor ignition pickup.   The distributor ignition pickup is very sensitive to engine RPM, and is also prone to developing winding shorts in its sensor coil. If the sensor coil becomes shorted; it is very likely to create a situation where the engine will not have a spark below a particular RPM. In view of this; the observation you previously made about the engine only starting in first gear, but not in second; now sounds more like the ignition pickup is bad than either a module or a coil problem. Replies to this message: shaggyman1 (May 29, 2009 5:34 am) zaken1 (May 29, 2009 8:28 pm) shaggyman1 (May 30, 2009 4:07 pm) and 3 more...
#1587 of 1696 Metro LSI Alternator Diode Test by annielulu May 29, 2009 (12:24 am)
I performed the test as suggested to check the alternator diode. Not even a hint of a spark when reattaching, and I did it a couple of times.   Maybe my luck is changing with this baby.
#1588 of 1696 Re: Distributor Broken [zaken1] by shaggyman1 May 29, 2009 (5:34 am)
Replying to: zaken1 (May 29, 2009 12:23 am) Um...Uh.. the 1995 was a typo- it's a 1996. Crank sensor is located on the oil pan under the water pump. I just replaced the distributor and pickup coil, and have not tried to push start it since doing so. Last night I went through the checklist on AllData for "engine Cranks But Will Not Run" as far as the ignitor, but all the tests appear to be only for the circuit, without the ignitor connected. Circuits are good, and I'm going to RPL the ignitor with a salvage yard component, just to see if it helps. The sparks I do get are yellow, so I'm thinking either coil or igniter are not up to snuff, regardless of whatever other isuues there may be. I will try closing the plug gap to 30 first, and see if it kicks up, but I'm not confident that it will start in the one or two revolutions where I still have spark   Having replaced the distributor, since the engine will not start, I can't properly set the timing- is 5 BTDC a good ballpark static time? Replies to this message: zaken1 (May 29, 2009 8:28 pm) shaggyman1 (May 30, 2009 4:07 pm) zaken1 (May 30, 2009 6:57 pm) and 2 more...
#1589 of 1696 Re: Distributor Broken [shaggyman1] by zaken1 May 29, 2009 (8:28 pm)
Replying to: shaggyman1 (May 29, 2009 5:34 am) Yes; 5 BTDC is the appropriate timing point. If you have a voltmeter; it would be valuable to tap into the hot battery lead at the coil (while it is still connected to the coil); and do a voltage drop measurement across the ignition power supply circuit. Connect the negative meter lead to the coil hot wire; and connect the positive meter lead to the battery positive terminal. Set the meter to the lowest DC voltage range. Crank the engine, and see what the meter reads while it is cranking (I assume the starter still works, and that you are push starting it in order to get more power to the ignition); but for this measurement, I want to see the voltage drop across the ignition supply circuit while the starter is cranking the engine. It would also be helpful to measure the voltage across the battery while there is no power being drawn; and then measure it again while the starter is cranking. That will give me a better perspective on the situation.   Regarding the crank sensor; I don't know how accurate the test procedures for that item are. I've heard of many instances where a defective crank sensor will cause the spark to shut down after the first few revolutions. Because of that; I would consider replacing the crank sensor; even though it tests good by the tests you have done.   Hey; I also want to mention that Rock Auto just happens to have one remaining brand new Beck Arnley ignition module (which they call "Distributor Transistor Unit) for your car; which is a closeout purchase from some other warehouse. The regular price for that part is about $88; but they want $23.79 for this particular one. Beck Arnley is the highest quality supplier of import parts; and I have bought closeouts from Rock Auto before, and have never been disappointed by what I got. You can find this by going to www.rockauto.com looking up your car make, year, and model in their online catalog; selecting the engine size, and scrolling down to "ignition." There are separate listings for ignition modules and distributor transistor units; but they are really two different names for the same part. The Beck Arnley unit comes mounted on a metal heat sink. Replies to this message: shaggyman1 (May 30, 2009 4:07 pm) zaken1 (May 30, 2009 6:57 pm) shaggyman1 (Jun 03, 2009 4:16 pm) and 1 more...
#1590 of 1696 Metro LSI by annielulu May 30, 2009 (12:14 am)
Put 3 new Autolite #63 plugs in, gapped at .030. Still just spins and will not start. I'm going to bed and worry about this tomorrow. Sigh. Replies to this message: zaken1 (Jun 02, 2009 11:02 pm)
#1591 of 1696 Re: Distributor Broken [zaken1] by shaggyman1 May 30, 2009 (4:07 pm)
Replying to: zaken1 (May 29, 2009 8:28 pm) I have confidence that the ignitor and coil are both good- did the reverse thing and put the questionable parts in a known good car, and they worked fine.   Replaced the Crankshaft Position Sensor- no change.   Flashed the ECM to expunge any bad learned behavior- no change.   Battery voltage with ignition 'ON' : 13.03V, 11.92V while cranking. (Drop of 1.11V) Coil + to Batt - : 12.89V at rest, 11.77V while cranking. (Drop of 1.12 V)   Checking the Pickup coil in the distributor, I am getting 165 Ohms, rather than the 200 to 255 the book says, but I'm getting a pretty decent spark before it quits...   Also, and probably more significant, the harness for the Crank Sensor should have a minimum of 1M Ohm on each side. I get the meg on one side, but the other comes out to only 24K Ohms. Thinking maybe ground was leaking through a fault in the ECM, I swapped for my other ECM- all same same.   So My guess is that the Crankshaft Position Sensor is doing it's job, and the ECM is doing it's job, but the communication between them garbles the message and the ECM cuts off the spark after one camshaft rotation. (Why it would even have the idea of doing such a thing is a matter for another, more philosophical forum)   Anyone know of a good reference for the wiring harness that gives connector colors and pin defs?   (NO hair left- now gnashing teeth and looking for a good electrical engineer whom I can bribe with mead....) Replies to this message: zaken1 (May 30, 2009 6:57 pm) shaggyman1 (Jun 03, 2009 4:16 pm) zaken1 (Jun 08, 2009 7:35 pm)

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