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#1555 of 1692 Re: Thank you Zaken1 [annielulu] by zaken1 May 26, 2009 (8:55 am)
Replying to: annielulu (May 25, 2009 11:17 pm) Gee, another old soul: I spent all my money to buy my first motorcycle 50 years ago; only to find out that the engine, which had just been freshly rebuilt by the dealer, did not run properly. I couldn't afford to pay anyone to fix it, so I went to the library and read every book they had on repairing engines. After spending weeks going through all the usual electrical and fuel stuff to no avail; it seemed like the only remaining possibility was the valve timing. So I bravely pulled the timing cover; and sure enough found that the idiot who had assembled the engine had not meshed the cam gears correctly. The motor ran great after that; and I was enthused and inspired enough to take two years of auto shop in high school, and then began fixing all my friends' cars and motorcycles. I had the major advantage over most other mechanics of being open minded, patient, humble and inquisitive enough to read and learn about things that I did not already know. So it usually turned out that I ended up working on engines everywhere I went.    After dropping out of college in my senior year as a Cultural Anthropology major and then having a series of abortive employment experiences; I decided I could not be happy spending my life working for someone else. I spent a summer at a spiritually based commune in the Nevada desert, and then returned to my beloved northern California; reinvigorated and inspired. A week later, I was walking down the street and saw a man struggling to start his Volvo. I offered to help; and ended up correcting an ignition problem which had baffled a series of previous mechanics. The grateful motorist turned out to be a professor at Stanford. He began recommending me to his students; and I soon had a thriving business. I then went back to night school, took some advanced courses in emissions, oscilloscope engine diagnosis and ignition electronics, bought a bunch of specialized tools, and spent the next 27 years as a self employed fuel, electrical, and diagnostic specialist. I never had to advertise; clients usually told their friends about this weird guy who had no official credentials, worked out of old buildings, charged half the hourly rate of the major shops (but usually spent twice as much time as they did to do a job; in order to do it right, and maintain sanity) and sold parts at no mark up. When word got out that I had decided to retire in 1997, one of my more creative clients somehow got hold of my address book; and secretly organized a huge farewell party. It brought tears to my eyes to see so many people whose cars I'd worked on for all those years.   I spent the next 3 years helping out at the US headquarters of a Buddhist meditation oranization in rural Maryland; until the stock market tanked in 2000. I then was hired to teach courses in engine theory at Motorcycle Mechanics Institute in Orlando, Florida. Having no formal credentials; I had to once again enlist the support of enthusiastic former clients; who wrote 20 letters of reference. And that was what got me that position. I taught at MMI for most of 2001, and loved the work; until bikers bad attitudes and a profit hungry administration eventually combined to create an unsustainable environment.   So that's why I'm back in California, and now write online. I hope this background information was not excessively long or boring.   If the wiring issues I mentioned do not turn out to fix your problem, and the information you provide indicates a weak spark; it will be necessary for you to buy or borrow a voltmeter, in order to conclusively determine the source of the problem. Radio Shack sells several different types of voltmeters which would be suitable. Any meter which can resolve the difference between readings as close together as 1.3; 1.5; and 1.7 volts would be suitable. A digital meter would be nice; but the very cheap digital meters have poor accuracy. If you're going to pay $20; an analog meter might be a better choice. That store used to sell an analog meter with a mirrored scale, for about that price. And it was a particularly good value.
#1556 of 1692 Re: Thank you Zaken1 [annielulu] by zaken1 May 26, 2009 (11:41 am)
Replying to: annielulu (May 25, 2009 11:17 pm) I just wanted to add that there is an alternate way to trigger the coil to produce sparks; which does not require running the starter. This method will only work on cars which have a centrifugal advance mechanism in the distributor; so you need to confirm there is a centrufugal advance by turning the rotor counterclockwise with your hand, to confirm that the rotor turns easily for a short distance. You should feel a spring trying to turn the rotor back when you do so.   Just remove the distributor cap, remove the fuel pump fuse, and turn the engine until the rotor points to somewhere between 12 and 1 o'clock. If it is too close to the 12 o'clock position, this won't work; so you need to aim for something closer to the 1 o'clock position. Turn the ignition key to the position where the dashboard warning lights come on; hold the end of the coil wire close to a grounded object with one hand, and turn the rotor counterclockwise against the advance spring with the other hand. There should be a spark from the coil wire each time you turn the rotor. If you rapidly turn the rotor back and forth, there will be a stream of sparks from the coil wire. If there are no sparks from the wire; you'll need to turn the engine to reposition the rotor a little more clockwise.   This method is a lot easier on the battery, starter, and doesn't flood the engine from unnecessary running of the fuel pump.
#1557 of 1692 Zaken1 by annielulu May 26, 2009 (11:50 am)
Thanks, I checked your messages. I will be working on the car a little later today and get back to you.
#1558 of 1692 Re: METRO FUSE [zaken1] by fastford1 May 27, 2009 (10:04 am)
Replying to: zaken1 (May 25, 2009 10:20 pm) been reading this and it sounds like the same problem I'm having. I have a 94 geo with the 1.0L in it. It has the updated coil in it. The book I have said the ignition module is on the firewall. I can't find it ???? I have tried and tried to get this car running. Put a new re-man motor in and can get it to start. HELP me too. Replies to this message: zaken1 (May 27, 2009 10:45 am)
#1559 of 1692 Re: METRO FUSE [fastford1] by zaken1 May 27, 2009 (10:45 am)
Replying to: fastford1 (May 27, 2009 10:04 am) Your ignition module is a small plastic box which is mounted with two bolts, and has a three terminal plug on it. It is located on the firewall near the coil. If you can't find it; go to www.rockauto.com and look up your car year and model in their online catalog (under Geo). Scroll down to "ignition" and click on the ignition control module category. You can see a photo of each part in their listings by clicking on the blue icon with the "i" in it, which follows the part number listing.   I have NEVER seen one of those modules go bad. (which does not mean it can't happen) But one little known thing that commonly prevents a spark is that you cannot run power through a jumper from the battery to the hot side of the coil (regardless of whether or not the ignition switch is on). The coil power MUST all go through the ignition switch; or the ignition system will not produce sparks. Apparently there is some sort of anti theft circuit which disables the spark if you try to hot wire the car.
#1560 of 1692 Zaken1-Metro update by annielulu May 27, 2009 (8:41 pm)
The coil says 12 volts, made by "Denso" company-there are 2 small wires coming out of the top, 1 is brown and 1 is red-those, and the big wire going to the distributor-nothing else coming out of the coil, nothing else attached to the coil. There are no wires coming out of the bottom of the coil and the distributor rotor cannot be turned either way by hand. I pulled the 15 amp fuse to disable fuel and it did not start.   I put a new distributor cap and rotor on it and it still won't start, not even a sputter. I was wondering...if I take the coil to a parts store-do they check these things out to see if they are bad Likewise-the ignition module???????   All wiring is tight that you suggested I check. Replies to this message: zaken1 (May 27, 2009 9:36 pm)
#1561 of 1692 Re: Zaken1-Metro update [annielulu] by zaken1 May 27, 2009 (9:36 pm)
Replying to: annielulu (May 27, 2009 8:41 pm) It is highly unlikely that someone in a parts store could check the coil adequately. They might be able to check popular modules; but it is unlikely that they would have the required information to enable them to connect test equipment to your module. Metros just are not that common; and electronic components vary greatly from one brand of vehicle to another. Besides; I think we can deal with this without additional cooks.   The coil on your car is not listed as the coil that belongs on it; in the source that I usually rely on. But there is some confusion in the coil listings for Metros of that era; so I cannot be sure it is not the right coil. If you had a volt-ohmmeter; it could provide information about the coil which might conclusively determine its suitability. And a volt-ohmmeter would also be essential in determining whether the ignition switch has developed excessive resistance; which, along with the coil, is one of the most common causes of weak sparks.   But, for now; I'd like you to test the spark from the coil wire for its color, and to see how far it can jump; as I explained earlier. Since your car apparently has the type of distributor with electronic spark advance; the rotor cannot be turned, so you won't be able to use the test that doesn't require running the starter. But you've apparently been able to test for spark before; so I expect you have a remote starter switch, or an equivalent. If you can only crank the engine from inside the passenger compartment; I'll ask you to either get a remote starter switch; or I can explain how to make a usable jumper wire for cheap; or you can ask someone else to help crank the starter while you're under the hood measuring the spark.   I don't know whether spending 20 or 25 bucks on a voltmeter would be something you could afford or not; and I'd like to get a better sense about your limitations in that respect, so we can decide more appropriately on how to proceed from here.   But if you at least can somehow test the spark to see how far it will jump; that might be as much information as we need for now. So let me know where you stand on this.
#1562 of 1692 Metro Spark Test by annielulu May 27, 2009 (9:46 pm)
Will do as soon as my roomate gets home.   Thank you Zaken1   ps Sometime when I try to shut the engine off with the key, the engine will keep on running even with the key out, usually if the battery is somewhat run down. I have to quickly disconnect the battery terminal when that happens. Could this ignition thing have anything to do with it. Replies to this message: zaken1 (May 27, 2009 10:41 pm)
#1563 of 1692 Re: Metro Spark Test [annielulu] by zaken1 May 27, 2009 (10:41 pm)
Replying to: annielulu (May 27, 2009 9:46 pm) That could have something to do with the ignition problem; if the contacts in the ignition switch were connected to the wiring harness incorrectly. Do you know whether any work has been done on the wiring under the dash? Has the ignition switch been modified or replaced with a different type of switch? Also:is your car a convertible? (convertibles use a different ignition coil than the coupes or 4 doors).
#1564 of 1692 Metro LSI by annielulu May 27, 2009 (10:54 pm)
The car is a convertible. I don't know if any ignition switch work or under dash wiring was ever done. The co that made the coil also made a lot of the other parts. Looks like a Japanese company (subcontractor or whatever). The key problem is only of recent vintage. I really think that it doesn't have anything to do with the current problem. Just that when the battery is low, it seems not to kick off the key when you attempt to shut the engine off. Maybe something to do with not having enough juice to do it or whatever. Anyway, the car ran for over 1 1/2 years without any key problems before all this started. As soon as I can get my roommate to work the key, I will measure the coil spark length, color, etc and report back. Many thanks. Replies to this message: zaken1 (May 27, 2009 11:02 pm)

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