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#1535 of 1692 Metro 1.3 LSI still no start. by annielulu May 24, 2009 (7:16 pm)
Zaken1: OK, I put in new plugs as you suggested. The coil is putting out a strong spark and so are the plug wires. Rotor and cap are clean and fine. It is timed at the 5 mark and the rotor is in the right position relative to the #1 plug at startup. But, the motor still just spins fast and doesn't even attempt to start, doesn't even sputter, etc. I pulled the air filter and took apart that little spring loaded square assembly with the 4 screws-the gasket was fine, so was the spring. It's getting fuel, but I think it may be getting too much as it smells of fuel at the air filter area after trying to start AND the plugs get wet. Would changing the timing higher or lower than the 5 setting help? What should I check regarding the fuel? Help please. Thanks. Replies to this message: senormechanico (May 24, 2009 8:27 pm) zaken1 (May 24, 2009 9:19 pm)
#1536 of 1692 Re: Metro 1.3 LSI still no start. [annielulu] by senormechanico May 24, 2009 (8:27 pm)
Replying to: annielulu (May 24, 2009 7:16 pm) Could your distributor be off by 180 degrees? The timing mark would still line up with the strobe, but it would be firing at the top of the piston travel right between the exhaust and intake instead of the compression stroke.   Steve B. '95 Geo 1.0 5 sp.
#1537 of 1692 Re: Metro 1.3 LSI still no start. [annielulu] by zaken1 May 24, 2009 (9:19 pm)
Replying to: annielulu (May 24, 2009 7:16 pm) Hey; you faked me out with the title of this last post (#1535). Read the title and see if you can find the problem. The 1.3 is the displacement of the 4 cylinder Metro. But you've been saying you had a 1.0 liter 3 cyl up until now. I saw that title when I was halfway through with writing a detailed answer; and had to scroll back about 3 pages to find your original posts. And in the process, my answer went away. I'm assuming you really have the 3 cyl engine, and just made a typo. Please correct me if I'm wrong.   First of all; you've got to have clean, dry plugs in the engine, in order for it to start. Since you say the plugs are wet, they will all have to be taken out and dried off. The best way to dry plugs off is with the flame from a propane torch. In a pinch, a gas flame from a kitchen stove can also be used; but the stove burner flame isn't hot enough to burn off carbon deposits; it can only boil off gasoline. Be sure to hold the metal plug body with a pair of pliers, so your hand doesn't get burned.   While the spark plugs are out; the next thing I'd like you to do is to remove the distributor cap, and turn the engine until the rotor tip points to the 3 o'clock position. This should put the piston in #1 cylinder at the bottom of the compression stroke. Then hold your thumb over the spark plug hole for #1 cylinder, so that it seals the opening; and have someone either very briefly tap the starter, or push the car forward in second gear. As soon as the engine begins to turn, you should feel strong air pressure against your thumb. If the engine turns enough to move the rotor tip to the 12 o'clock position, and you have not felt strong pressure against your thumb; the timing belt is out of position. (If that turns out to be the case; I would suspect that the timing belt tensioner came loose because it was not properly adjusted or tightened. There are TWO bolts for the tensioner. The bolt in the adjustment slot is the first one to tighten; to set the belt tension, after the spring has pulled the belt as tight as it can. The second bolt is in the center of the tensioner wheel. It must then be tightened to lock the tensioner in the position where the adjustment was set.)   If you feel strong compression pressure against your thumb when the engine turns that 1/4 turn of the rotor (which equals 1/2 turn of the crankshaft), that proves the timing belt is in proper mesh. And this test will address the point which Senor Mechanico brought up, about the distributor being 180 degrees off.   The next thing to do is to hold the end of the coil wire close to and directly above the inner end of the metal strip on top of the rotor, and then have someone crank the engine. If there are any sparks from the coil wire to the rotor while the engine cranks; the rotor is internally shorted; and must be replaced. With a good rotor; there should be no sparks during that test.   If you still haven't found a problem; take the distributor cap out into bright sunlight, or put it under a 100 watt desk lamp, and look closely at the inside surface of the cap with a magnifying glass. If there are any cracks or lines radiating from the center terminal to any other part of the cap; the cap should be replaced.   If all the above tests come out good; install the clean, dry spark plugs, and try starting the engine while you hold the accelerator pedal all the way to the floor. The engine should be allowed to crank continuously for up to ten or fifteen seconds each time you're trying to start it.   If it still doesn't start; is it possible that you bought a tank of E85 ethanol fuel when you last bought gas? This engine will not run on E85. It is only intended for use in new cars which are made for it.
#1538 of 1692 Metro still no start. by annielulu May 24, 2009 (9:42 pm)
Sorry about the typo. I'll give your suggestions a try. This car is driving me nuts! Replies to this message: zaken1 (May 24, 2009 10:31 pm)
#1539 of 1692 Re: Metro still no start. [annielulu] by zaken1 May 24, 2009 (10:31 pm)
Replying to: annielulu (May 24, 2009 9:42 pm) And if nothing is found with all that I said above; get a compression gauge, and check the compression in all the cylinders. It should be at least 180 psi all the way across; and preferably higher. The compression in a new engine is 195 psi. If the compression is lower than these figures; the engine cannot be tuned to start and run reliably. In that case it would either have to be replaced or overhauled. There is a great engine remanufacturer called Hiperformer Engines, in Spokane, Washington; who sells completely remanufactured Metro 3 cyl engines for about $1,300 plus shipping. These engines come with a 7 year, 100,000 mile warranty: www.hiperformer.com
#1540 of 1692 Metro by annielulu May 24, 2009 (10:50 pm)
Thank you.
#1541 of 1692 METRO 1.0 by annielulu May 25, 2009 (5:48 pm)
Zaken1:   OK, here's where I'm at- Put in new plugs, wiring ok, cap-rotor & coil ok. I did the 3 o'clock test with the rotor. The piston did go to top dead center while the rotor is at the 12 o'clock spot with the piston at TDC. BUT, the marks where you time it (0-20), now has the little white timing mark set at 17 when the rotor is at 12 o'clock and the piston is at top dead center. Shouldn't the white timing mark line up to the 5 notch? Remember, this is a new timing belt. Could it have slipped after initial installation. Do I need to take the belt off to reset things or what.
#1542 of 1692 Additional comment to previous post by annielulu May 25, 2009 (6:19 pm)
Zaken1:   Keeping the above post in mind- I am working on this car alone, so I had no one to turn it over to get the piston to TDC with the rotor at 12 o'clock, so, I can't tell if the piston was at the top of the compression stroke, or at the top of the exhaust stroke. I believe this would make a difference and maybe that is why the timing mark was at 17 and not 5. Replies to this message: zaken1 (May 25, 2009 6:48 pm)
#1543 of 1692 Re: Additional comment to previous post [annielulu] by zaken1 May 25, 2009 (6:48 pm)
Replying to: annielulu (May 25, 2009 6:19 pm) First of all; it would not make ANY difference in the timing marks whether the engine was at TDC Compression or TDC exhaust stroke. The pulley with the timing mark on it is firmly bolted to the crankshaft; so there is no way there can be an error in the timing you read. When the mark lines up with zero degrees, the piston WILL be at TDC. But there is a good chance you made an error in the way you determined TDC; which I assume you did by sticking something into the spark plug opening and feeling the piston. 17 degrees is not an unlikely amount of error, when using that method while working alone in the dark. So let's set that concern aside for now.   When the rotor is pointing anywhere between 3 o'clock and 12 o'clock, the piston in # 1 cylinder will be on the compression stroke. When it is on the exhaust stroke; the rotor will point between 9 o'clock and 6 o'clock (with 6 o'clock being TDC).   Incidentally, the actual TDC position coincides with ZERO degrees on the crankshaft pulley. 5 degrees is when the spark is supposed to take place; but the crankshaft position at that point is 5 degrees BEFORE TDC.   In order to check the timing belt alignment; turn the engine until the timing mark lines up with zero degrees, and then look at the rotor position. It should be either pointing STRAIGHT UP (12:00) or STRAIGHT DOWN (6:00). When the timing mark lines up with 5 degrees; the rotor should line up with the cap terminal for the #1 spark plug wire. But the difference between TDC and 5 degrees BTDC is so small that it can pretty much be ignored for this purpose.   If the rotor does not point very close to straight up or straight down when the pulley mark lines up with zero degrees; the timing belt is off.
#1544 of 1692 Metro timing by annielulu May 25, 2009 (7:05 pm)
Thank you Zaken1:   The timing mark is now set at exactly zero degrees and the rotor is pointing up exactly 12 o'clock. So I can assume that the belt is secure and that the timing is good, right? So, in light of everything I have done to the car, it should now start. I am almost afraid to try it. And, I always put regular gas in it from the same station, so bad fuel should not be the problem. I'll wait a few minutes to see if you send me anything else and then I will go and try to start it again. Replies to this message: zaken1 (May 25, 2009 7:30 pm)

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