Last post on Jul 31, 2013 at 2:11 AM
You are in the Volkswagen Golf
What is this discussion about?
Volkswagen Golf, Honda Civic, Hatchback
Jun 20, 2000 (7:44 pm)
I don't think we need to start another war, but Eludwig was just voicing his opinion. I don't think he attacked anyone in particular. He was pointing things out about VWs that in his opinion are not so good.. How can his remarks be inflammatory if he weren't refering to anyone in particular but the Manufacturer?
I think it's all very simple. Honda puts slightly smaller displacement engines in their cars because they 're more fuel efficient and the Civics are much lighter than a Golf, in the neighborhood of 400+lbs.
VW uses bigger displacement motors to provide enough torque to compensate for the weight. But 115hp out of a 2.0L engine? Com'on.. A Neon has had more power than that with the same displacement for over 6 yrs now! The Civic EX has had 125-127hp since 1992 with only a 1.6L. The Civic's torque is very comparable to its displacement (107ft-lbs vs 122 in the 2.0L Golf)
The Integra's 1.8L engine has more torque than the Golf's 2.0L. Geez, what happened there? Simple answer, better technology my VW friends. I mean who still uses 2v per cyl. engines? That's old technology! Honda has always been able to put out more HP per liter and longer lasting torque throughout most of the rpm band than most cars except for maybe 1 car that comes to mind (Ferrari, but I think the S2000 has it beat in output per liter)
In any case look at the Golf GTI GLS. It stickers for $18,200 and you still get a 2.0L 115hp 8V motor! A 140hp Integra LS only stickers for a $1K more. You get 25hp more, a couple more lb-ft of torque and the same standard options that you get in the GLS and maybe more. The Integra's interior is top notch quality.
But forget the Integra. The 160hp Civic Si is even cheaper. It may not have the built quality of the Integra (but it's not too far behind) and ABS, but you get a lot of bang for the buck.
I think it's unfair to compare the Civic HB to a Golf because of the price difference and in my opinion they don't really compete. Had there been a Civic HB Si (127hp) like the last generation, with a couple of standard options for a couple of $K more, then it might 've been a fair comparison. The Golf's just has more standard options and sticker for a lot more than $11-12K. The best part is, a Civic CX/DX 5-sp. will blow a 2.0L Golf away.
If I paid $15-16K for my Golf, I 'd want to at least keep up if not beat $11-12K cars at the light, wouldn't you?
Sentra20ser: I agree with a lot of things you said, but honestly, would you rather drive a 130hp 16V GTI or an Integra GSR? I 've blown away many of VR6s in my '99 GSR and with some simple suspension mods I 've done, they can't keep up with me on highways (I 'm talking very high speeds) or winding back roads. They try, but none have succeeded yet. One of these days a modded VR6 may come along and maybe whip my bu*t but until that time, I 'll be whipping theirs.
PS. I also have a Cold air intake (9% more HP at the wheels, on the dyno..)
#347 of 667 sheesh... okay
Jun 20, 2000 (8:15 pm)
I guess I got a little riled about the aftermarket availability to address shortcomings comment. Sorry if I came off as a bit sparky.
But I am having much more fun at work with this little exchange.
Eludwig, the MkI and MkII Golfs and GTI's were pretty darn cool, and if I had the time and expertise I'd snap up a MkI GTI today. The MkIII's? Well, they got a little heavy, and the 2.0 8v is a pretty run of the mill engine that will get eaten for lunch by a lot of other cars and trucks.
However, the MkIV 1.8t's are pretty cool, especially with the GTI badge. The current crop of VW's are just very different cars than their predecessors. What they lack in spunk, though, they make up in refinement.
I don't know if I can answer your question about personality. Is it the heritage? Is it the cool dash display when the headlights are on? The lines? The silly commercials? I dunno. It's something that can't be put into words. I think the Civic is a fine car, especially the Si, but I just can't get excited about it. Again, just my opinion.
Aren't you in the new car market? Keep us posted with what you get. My GTI is my second new car after driving a Nissan pickup for seven years, so you can imagine the difference I'm experiencing.
Only1Harry, you'd better be beating the pants off those VR6's. Integras are renowned for being some of the best handling vehicles out there.
Now when I get my chip and do some suspension/tire mods of my own, let's together. I don't know that any butt whipping that will be going on, but let's see who keeps up with who.
#348 of 667 ok we 're all friends again.. :)
Jun 20, 2000 (8:55 pm)
You 're on goop!
Actually I like the 1.8T's engine. That's what you have right? 150hp was just what the Golf needed and that of course comes with decent torque. With some suspension mods and some good tires you might be able to keep up but not before you get that chip because right now I have at least a 30hp advantage over you.
On the open highway I hope you can go over 140 because I do that often and can change lanes very easily at those speeds (couldn't before my suspension mods and tires). Now to make this all happen you have to come up from Houston to NY! There are plenty of auto-x races here too so we can race against time and avoid public roads..
Seriously good luck with the mods. The 1.8T has a fine motor and like you said it's in the TT. Since I hate V6s, if I were in the market for a VW, I 'd get the 1.8T too. I 'm sure there will be aftermarket stuff for it soon if not already. But if I ever turbo charge or supercharge my GSR, there would be no competition between the two cars at all, chip or no chip in the GTI. Even a modest 6psi boost supercharger gives the GSR an extra 60-70hp at the wheels (add 17-18% more and you get the the advertised HP at the flywheel). A low boost turbocharger easily adds 100whp or about 300hp total at the flywheel/crank of a GSR. So for now I 'll stay naturally aspirated against your turbo to keep things a little more even. And don't forget we have the same displacement!
You gotta love VTEC
Jun 20, 2000 (9:13 pm)
Goop- sorry. I should know people get offended when others question what they bought for their hard earned dollars. Just look at the age old Ford vs. Chevy truck debate. For a next car, I'm all over the place. Considerations (w/ my opinions) are:
* Integra GS-R sedan: amazing for $20k, but dated styling.
* Altima SE: bargains at hurting Nissan dealers, good performance all-around, reliable, but ugly.
* Golf 1.8T: cool cause I'm German, neat motor, nice std equipment, but uncertain reliability, okay 5-speed.
I REALLY wish I could drive an Alfa Romeo 156 2L. Talk about personality! Now there's a car where the driving experience far outweighs any reliability concerns. If you ever rent a car in Europe, try one!!!
#350 of 667 what the.......
Jun 20, 2000 (9:24 pm)
For starters, I just happen to have a copy of my title from my 1994 Golf GL. According to it the weight of the car was listed at 2200lbs. I don't think of that as being to heavy. The engine in that car to me was marvelous. It loved to be driven hard which it was constantly, and although it only had about 115hp (stock) it was still able to perform well against Civics and Neons. Have any of you Honda guys/gals ever driven a Golf? Or is all of your negative feed back about the car based mostly on hear say and magazine reports? Also check the weight on an Si and then take a look at the 1.8t, there's no 400+ weight difference, and how in tarnation could anyone call the interior of the Golf boring while in the same breath dare to praise that of the civics.
#351 of 667 ludwig + harry
Jun 20, 2000 (10:05 pm)
eludwig - have you thought about the Celica GT-S? Great car, new styling, and a blast to drive. Yeah, the cable link shifting in my GTI does leave a little sumfin to be desired.
only1harry - you are definitely on. If I didn't have a band here in Houston I'd be living in NYC, and I'm always up for an excuse to drive somewhere. Give me some time on the tire/wheel mods - I'm trying to build a home studio, too, and IT pays well but not that well.
My dream car - the Audi RS4. Basically an Audi A4 wagon (Avant) with a 6 speed manual tranny, 386 hp/324 torque out of a twin turbo V6 and quattro. Oh yes, and beefy 18" wheels and okay I have to stop now and come back down to reality, since this beauty will never make it to the States. I wouldn't mind a Nissan Skyline for that matter, but the thought of a WAGON that destroys 90+% of what's out there on the road is just so appealing.
Qword - the first GTI debuted(?) at 1800 pounds. Since then, the cars have gotten heavier - the price of being safer and having more features. If you think Honda people can be tough on Golf's and 'newer' VW's, try talking to an air-cooled dubber fanatic. Now those guys are tough.
Jun 21, 2000 (1:59 am)
I know of a few people that will not settle for anything less than their old school air-cooled V-Dub. Believe me I know how tough those guys and their cars are. Just left from Alamo Autosports here in Arlington Texas where they have one of Speed Visions Dodge Viper race cars on the dyno. They wouldn't give me the numbers, but they said that it reached 180mph in third gear. Ouch........
Also my dream car (if released here in the states) will be VW's 330hp all wheel drive rally six speed Golf. That's something that has been in the works now for the past couple of years. We will see though............
Also, if you live in Houston you should drive up here to Euless on the weekend of the 15th in July. There's going to be a pretty good car show for VW's. There will be a little something for everyone............
#353 of 667 VW Torque vs. Honda Torque
Jun 21, 2000 (3:27 am)
Honda drivers don't understand that VW engines are built to have a flat power curve. The VTEC is great, but is very peaky. Even the non-VTEC 1.8L doesn't produce much power below 4000rpm. Low torque is an autocrosser's best friend. I race both a '84 GTI and a '97 GSR coupe whenever I get a chance. Both have one purpose and that is to race. Most of the races in my area are on 2nd and 3rd gear (fast)tracks. (meaning once you get out of 1st you never have to go back.) The GSR is a listed 170hp and the Rabbit is listed at 90hp. The Rabbit has terrible steering and brakes compared to the newer Acura, but for some reason the Rabbit is able to always run within a second of the GSR no-matter how fast the course. I know the GSR would pull a mid 14 in the quarter and the Rabbit would have a hard time doing it under 17. It is hard to believe that the Rabbit is that fast on a race track. The only reason I can think of is that the GTI plus strong from 2000rpm up to 6500rpm. The GSR boggs at 2000rpm and takes longer to get back into the powerband. (I can hear the non-racers now. Downshift!) Level power output is a must. That is why VW's rule for daily driving and at autocrosses.
Jun 21, 2000 (3:39 am)
so since this is like my third or fourth post in 24 hours, I officially have no life.
qword, damn you. Just when I'm really falling in love with my GTI you bring up a 4Motion 6 speed rally VW. I'm drooling like Homer Simpson over a dougnut.
Is there a website for this festival? Feel free to email it to the address on my profile.
You guys all sound like you have way too much fun with your cars. Anyone care to recommend a good steet/track driving course for a newbie? Thanks!
#355 of 667 auto-x, handling comments..
Jun 21, 2000 (6:56 pm)
Sentra20ser: Well I guess it depends where you live and what mods your car has. Over here the Integra Type-R rules. The VW GTI VR6 is in the same auto-x class as the Integra GSR and Type-R (& Prelude). Both GSR and VW VR6 don't stand a chance against the Type-Rs!!
Show me a stock VW VR6 that has beaten a Type-R in the same stock class.
I 'm talking SCCA G-Stock class. The Type-R rules, period. Stock GSRs do pretty well against the VW VR6s too. Once you get into modified classes anything goes. Usually it's the little CRXs around here that kick everyone's butt in the various modified classes and that includes many modified Golfs and GTIs. I participate in 5 different auto-x clubs in NY & NJ. I don't think I 've ever seen any VW come first in its class or win any trophies. I 'm not putting them down. Some do pretty well in the modified classes but there is always an old Civic or CRX grossly modified that gets the best times in those classes. In the stock classes the regular Golf competes with Neons and Civics. The Neon R/T and ACR (special edition & limited production auto-x Neon) usually kick butt because they 're better hanlding cars than Civics and Golfs, stock.
Now if no Neons showed up, a stock Golf will probably win against stock Civics by a very small margin (drivers been equal).
qword: I was referring to the new Golfs. If you look at the "New Cars" section of Edmunds, you 'll see that all Golfs weigh between 2760 and 2900lbs!! My Civic hatchback weighs 2258 (it's in my registration) or around 2300 as Edmund's states. Yes, a Civic Si is exactly 2600lbs but that's still much lighter than a base Golf or about 300lbs less than a GLS or a VR6.
115hp may be adequate for a 2200-2500 (but nothing more than that) but nothing heavier. In my opinion they should 've dumped this engine or tweaked it to get another 15hp or so to compensate for the weight increase.