Last post on Jul 31, 2012 at 9:27 AM
You are in the Volkswagen Golf
What is this discussion about?
Volkswagen Golf, Honda Civic, Hatchback
#338 of 666 electrical equipment
Jun 16, 2000 (3:49 pm)
Hiya - I guess I'm coming from an electrical/gadget perspective. German cars have an unfortunate reputation for occassionally being a bit finicky in the electrical department. A friend of mine with a '00 GTI GLX has had some problems with his power windows, and I've read more than a few posts about similar issues over at the vortex. I'm not sure how substantial that is since that does boil down to hearsay, but just the fact that that VW is more feature laden than the Honda gives it more opportunities to break.
And after rereading the topic of this thread I see it's about the Golf versus a Civic DX, but the GTI 1.8t has 20 valves.
Which one are you looking at - the 1.8t or the VR6? I guarantee you'll be thrilled. After almost 2000 miles I still sometimes crank the up the Average White Band and drive for an hour after work, and it always puts a smile on my face despite crappy Houston roads.
Jun 19, 2000 (9:15 pm)
If you'd rather spend time with your friends and family than your dealer's service department, buy a Civic. Sure, Golfs are loaded with equipment, but they have a sketchy service record, get embarrasing mileage for a car in this class, handle like a Buick (these days), and come at a totally unjustified price. Oh, I forgot to mention that dealers can't guarantee getting you the car you want. Overall, the Civic is a much better deal, is more fun to drive since it has a far superior 5-speed and motor, and is guaranteed to last 200k miles if serviced regularly.
Jun 19, 2000 (9:39 pm)
My friend is up to 240k mi. on his '91 Civic. He replaced the head gasket at about 210k mi. and the car 's been doing fine. He 's on the original clutch!
I 'll hit 102k mi. on my way home today,
('97 DX htbk) and my exhaust hasn't even begun to rust. I 'll be really happy with another 50K troublefree miles and then I 'll buy another Civic.
#341 of 666 My 88 civic H-back will..
Jun 20, 2000 (1:22 am)
crack 200K sometime in August. I am planning on keeping it after I buy something else. I have only changed the timing belt once and the clutch is the original.
What can I get a new civic hatchback for? An SI in particular? What are people paying?
Thanks in advance!
#342 of 666 VW Golf GL vs. Honda Civic DX HB: More......
Jun 20, 2000 (5:53 am)
I have drove Honda's since I first got my license.
I loved them. They are reliable. They are fun,
but they are also a little on the cheap side.
After owning a VW you will feel the same way about
Honda's as you do about Toyota's now. They are
good cars, but just lack a little personality. The VW price is very reasonable. There is nothing under 20 grand that will touch the quality of the interior in a VW. If Honda was smart they would have made a SI version of the hatchback. We all know Honda could do it, but instead they put the good motor in the coupe. Another thing I don't like about Honda is the idea of running a 1.6L. Why not bump it up to 1.8L or 2.0l? It is amazing what kind of difference a little displacement will make. I owned a '94 GSR coupe with the 1.8 VTEC. It was a fun car. It had enough low-end to keep me from redlining it in every gear to get around, but was a monster above 6000 rpm. I drove a friendís '99 Civic Si. The motor is ok in the VTEC range, but was real boring everywhere else. VW could do something to improve their cars too. The 2.0L 8-valve is a great motor, but its time has come. Why not
bring back the 130hp 2.0L 16v of the early 90's as
the base engine? It would make the car much more appealing to performance enthusiasts. Also the VR6 is finished. We all know the GOLF 1.8T is a performance chip away from being faster then the GOLF GTI VR6. Why not replace the GOLF GTI VR6 with a TT powered Golf GTI? The 180hp and 180lbs of torque in the GTI would make the GTI a real burner. The TT motor is the same 20-valve 1.8L turbo engine. It just has a larger turbo to force more air in the motor. I will still stand by the VW as being a better buy. The reliability is very similar in both cars. My í84 GTI has 200+k on it and is still going strong. It has never been rebuilt and has been autoxed almost every weekend since new. I bought it used as the second owner. It never sees anything but track time now, but it still runs strong. If I was going to drive a car for 100k I would much rather do it in a VW. German cars Rule!!!
#343 of 666 sentra20ser
Jun 20, 2000 (9:58 am)
To address a few points:
Honda chooses lower displacement because their VTEC technology allows them to optimize both fuel economy and acceleration. Luckily, their cars have flawless 5-speeds to make revving a pleasure. VW has yet to accomplish either of these feats.
Honda is dropping the hatch altogether because they don't sell. VW pushes them because they're a novelty in the US and it's how they built their business.
This "personality" VW owners refer to seems to be based on quirky design. Just look at the instruments on the new VW's, the crummy HVAC controls, numerous electronics problems (posted on this site), and the Euro-breadbox exteriors. Finally, it seems so many VW owners reply to Honda fans' questions about VW shortcomings with the possibility of some ill-conceived aftermarket part that will solve the problem.
Finally, everyone talks about the "quality" of the new VW's. Funny, because they've only been around a few years. Quality is earned over time, not from your first depression of a button.
Honda still makes a better performing car. Period. VW, with corporate goals of making higher volumes of cars, appears to be headed in the wrong direction. And the sign's pointing to their troubled plants in Mexico.
#344 of 666 eludwig
Jun 20, 2000 (4:49 pm)
1. Not all of us want to rev the crap out of our cars to elicit sporty performance. Also, some of us like to be able to climb hills.
2. Hondas hatches may not sell; VW's do. That's not saying one is better than the other. I bought my hatch not as a novelty but because it's functional and my car will be the crap out of an SUV on the road, where 90% of SUV 'drivers' take their vehicles.
3. Don't even compare the VW's interior to a Hondas. No comparison at all; the VW's interior is light years ahead of the Hondas. Ill conceived aftermarket parts? WTF? Honda has huge aftermarket support. It's not to address shortcomings but rather to tweak the vehicle to the owner's desired design. Geez, what a cheap shot to make.
4. Quirky design - sure it is. Quirky in terms of personality, something that Japanese cars are a little behind in these days. "Quality" has several metrics. Quality may refer to long term reliability, fit and finish, performance, or many other aspects of a vehicle. I know several old dubs that are still on the road, just as I know several Hondas. So?
5. Fantastic. That's your subjective opinion. The performance specs between these cars are so close that's it's ultimately up to the driver. Regardless, I like VW's much more than Civics- and I can say this without resorting to making cheap shots and saying how crappy Hondas are, 'cause they're not.
6. Quit trolling and say something useful. You ask about what makes a VW special in our eyes, say that you don't want to start an argument, and then post inflammatory remarks that show an obviously closed mind.
Jun 20, 2000 (8:29 pm)
The points I raised actually weren't jabs, but points noted in both Passat and Golf forums by VW owners like yourself. My goal was to derive what this VW "personality" is, and nobody's defined it yet.
The last cool VW in my opinion was the claasic early-'80's GTI. Had to rev it high, could toss it into turns, and had "personality". I beg you to explain how you see these same qualities in the current Golf No more remarks.
Jun 20, 2000 (8:44 pm)
I don't think we need to start another war, but Eludwig was just voicing his opinion. I don't think he attacked anyone in particular. He was pointing things out about VWs that in his opinion are not so good.. How can his remarks be inflammatory if he weren't refering to anyone in particular but the Manufacturer?
I think it's all very simple. Honda puts slightly smaller displacement engines in their cars because they 're more fuel efficient and the Civics are much lighter than a Golf, in the neighborhood of 400+lbs.
VW uses bigger displacement motors to provide enough torque to compensate for the weight. But 115hp out of a 2.0L engine? Com'on.. A Neon has had more power than that with the same displacement for over 6 yrs now! The Civic EX has had 125-127hp since 1992 with only a 1.6L. The Civic's torque is very comparable to its displacement (107ft-lbs vs 122 in the 2.0L Golf)
The Integra's 1.8L engine has more torque than the Golf's 2.0L. Geez, what happened there? Simple answer, better technology my VW friends. I mean who still uses 2v per cyl. engines? That's old technology! Honda has always been able to put out more HP per liter and longer lasting torque throughout most of the rpm band than most cars except for maybe 1 car that comes to mind (Ferrari, but I think the S2000 has it beat in output per liter)
In any case look at the Golf GTI GLS. It stickers for $18,200 and you still get a 2.0L 115hp 8V motor! A 140hp Integra LS only stickers for a $1K more. You get 25hp more, a couple more lb-ft of torque and the same standard options that you get in the GLS and maybe more. The Integra's interior is top notch quality.
But forget the Integra. The 160hp Civic Si is even cheaper. It may not have the built quality of the Integra (but it's not too far behind) and ABS, but you get a lot of bang for the buck.
I think it's unfair to compare the Civic HB to a Golf because of the price difference and in my opinion they don't really compete. Had there been a Civic HB Si (127hp) like the last generation, with a couple of standard options for a couple of $K more, then it might 've been a fair comparison. The Golf's just has more standard options and sticker for a lot more than $11-12K. The best part is, a Civic CX/DX 5-sp. will blow a 2.0L Golf away.
If I paid $15-16K for my Golf, I 'd want to at least keep up if not beat $11-12K cars at the light, wouldn't you?
Sentra20ser: I agree with a lot of things you said, but honestly, would you rather drive a 130hp 16V GTI or an Integra GSR? I 've blown away many of VR6s in my '99 GSR and with some simple suspension mods I 've done, they can't keep up with me on highways (I 'm talking very high speeds) or winding back roads. They try, but none have succeeded yet. One of these days a modded VR6 may come along and maybe whip my bu*t but until that time, I 'll be whipping theirs.
PS. I also have a Cold air intake (9% more HP at the wheels, on the dyno..)
#347 of 666 sheesh... okay
Jun 20, 2000 (9:15 pm)
I guess I got a little riled about the aftermarket availability to address shortcomings comment. Sorry if I came off as a bit sparky.
But I am having much more fun at work with this little exchange.
Eludwig, the MkI and MkII Golfs and GTI's were pretty darn cool, and if I had the time and expertise I'd snap up a MkI GTI today. The MkIII's? Well, they got a little heavy, and the 2.0 8v is a pretty run of the mill engine that will get eaten for lunch by a lot of other cars and trucks.
However, the MkIV 1.8t's are pretty cool, especially with the GTI badge. The current crop of VW's are just very different cars than their predecessors. What they lack in spunk, though, they make up in refinement.
I don't know if I can answer your question about personality. Is it the heritage? Is it the cool dash display when the headlights are on? The lines? The silly commercials? I dunno. It's something that can't be put into words. I think the Civic is a fine car, especially the Si, but I just can't get excited about it. Again, just my opinion.
Aren't you in the new car market? Keep us posted with what you get. My GTI is my second new car after driving a Nissan pickup for seven years, so you can imagine the difference I'm experiencing.
Only1Harry, you'd better be beating the pants off those VR6's. Integras are renowned for being some of the best handling vehicles out there.
Now when I get my chip and do some suspension/tire mods of my own, let's together. I don't know that any butt whipping that will be going on, but let's see who keeps up with who.