Last post on Jul 29, 2012 at 6:31 PM
You are in the Volvo XC90
What is this discussion about?
Mercedes-Benz M-Class, Acura MDX, Lexus RX 330, BMW X5, Cadillac SRX, Toyota Highlander, Volvo XC90, SUV
Jun 28, 2003 (12:07 pm)
About your counting skills. CTS's sale number in March 2003 are 4588 units, and that was a increase of 10.5%, March 2003 was one of their better months. They are on pace to sell a little more than 50000, see link below:
50000 units for a car that is under $30000, I consider that a failure, But considering Cadillac's last 2 attempt at cars under 30K, CTS is doing pretty well. The other 2 Cadillac under 30K from the past fail so badly that I cant even remember their names.
The only advantage of a RWD in fair weather is if you really push the car to the limit and it starts to spin out while cornering. A RWD car can regain control faster. Most new cars these days have stability and traction controls, so even that advantage of the RWD has been taken away. Just think about it, how many time do you take corners at 80 MPH. This big advantage of the RWD you are talking about might be utilize once or twice during the life span of that car if you are lucky. While the FWD advantage can be utilize every time it snow or rain.
By the way, you do know that Mercedes, Porsche and BMW have AWD vehicle for added tractions, right?
I dont think saving money was the reason why so many auto manufacturers are starting to use FWD. The manufacturer may save on the drive shift, but there are extra component in a FWD car as well, such as the vicous coupling. The American auto companies try to design FWD car in the 80s. They had design problems that still exist in their FWD cars today. They cannot design a powerful car with FWD. While Japanese and European cars are up to 200, 300 HP on their FWD cars with no torque steering.
BTW, the Edmunds TMV for a Deville is $40500, not 35000.
#687 of 1084 FWD/VC
Jun 28, 2003 (1:42 pm)
Viscous couplings are only common on AWD/4WD or sometimes rear LSD for RWD. I don't know of any FWD (only) "passenger" car/SUV that uses a VC.
#688 of 1084 Hopeitsfriday
Jun 28, 2003 (1:46 pm)
If you go down to your local Cadillac dealer, I guarantee you will not find a CTS that stickers under $30K, most are in the mid '30'Ks, loaded lux sports can go into the $40'Ks.
BTW... Edmunds TMV is wrong about the base DeVille. $35K prices right on the windshields at local dealer, even before the haggling begins.
And, GM cannot design a powerful FWD car? They were the first ones to do it, been building 300 hp FWD cars since 1993, long before anyone else.
Math.... I say 60K, you say 50K, so its going to be in between somewhere. Regardless, it's the 2nd best selling near-lux sports sedan....to say it's a failure is to say that every other vehicle of its type except for the BMW 3-Series is also a failure. This is obviously not the case - the C-Class and G35 are successful as well as the CTS.
Mercedes, BMW and Porsche do use AWD for added traction... not as a band-aid to make up for an inferior FWD design.
Greenlatern - that column says it all!!!
#689 of 1084 Steve...
Jun 28, 2003 (1:51 pm)
I think you may be missing my point, but thinking about it, that's likely my fault.
Because I know the "flaws" associated with FWD in slippery roadbed conditions, then I, like you, could probably drive one for thousands of miles and many years without incident or accident.
But what about the person(s) who have driven one for many years without ever encountering roadbed conditions that matter one way or another?
Think about your own natural instincts, without prior knowledge, experience, or training, what would be your first reaction (no clutch) when the front tires of a FWD first lose traction with the roadbed?
The slate article is very good except it needed a word or two about inadvertant compression braking on the front driven (and steering!!) wheels on throttle lift.
Jun 28, 2003 (2:41 pm)
GM have been makeing a 300 plus horsepower production front wheel drive car since 1993? Would you like to share the name of that GM automobile?
Option happy is another problem I have with the CTS. Why price a car at 29000, if one wants a FM radio, some normal wheels and perhaps bucket seats, the price goes up to 35000. Japanese and European car dont cheat people like that. That is false advertising in my opinion. Most of the time with Japanese and European car, the base price would buy you a car with acceptable options.
Mercedes, BMW and Porsche do use AWD for added traction, for people who do not drive exclusively on dry roads and race tracks.
Greenlatern - that column was totally bias. This was a guy that drove a FWD car in the 1980 and didnt like it when he lost control due to his driving. BTW the Camero is dieing just like the T bird, and the Camero have RWD, hum. Even the author admited that FWD has better traction. He also admits that the reason why he like RWD car is that he like to power slide when he floors the gas. I hope he never buys a car with traction control.
Jun 28, 2003 (3:41 pm)
I believe I'm supposed to say "let off the gas" but I really think my first reaction would be to steer. Maybe my bias stems from my early driving years on lots of gravel roads in a GMC pickup. All too easy to lose the rear end, and none of the fun of any of those Slate cars.
Good post though and your point is well taken.
#692 of 1084 Hopeitsfriday
Jun 28, 2003 (4:02 pm)
No problem.... the first FWD GM car with 300hp was the 1993 Allante, the only year that car got the Northstar engine. The STS got the Northstar in 1994 and has had 300hp ever since.
So now, why don't you name for me the car on which options can be bought ala carte? No such thing... everyone sells these option packages that drive up the prices.
Yes, Mercedes, Porsche and BMW offer AWD for a number of reasons.... but if you don't want the added weight, cost and complexity you still will have an dynamically excellent RWD vehicle, not a cheap FWD appliance.
The Slate article was spot on. The guy knew exactly what he was talking about.... too bad he didn't agree with you.
Jun 28, 2003 (6:50 pm)
Well you were almost right, that North star engine didnt get up to 300 horse power unit 1995, not 1993. And we all know that Cadillac still dont know how to make a FWD that handles well. The Allante was a failure as well, although it was better than that other piece of crap Cadillac put out before that, the Cimarron.
Almost all Japanese and European car can be bought with none or very little options and still be a very driveable car.
What you call FWD appliance, I call RWD dinosaur, perhaps you like that 8 track tape player mandatory option that comes with your RWD.
That slate guy knows nothing about the latest FWD technologies, he know as much about FWD as you do.
Lets face it, it is alot tougher to lose control in a FWD than a RWD. Once you lose control, one of the reason why a FWD is tougher to regain control is that, by the time you lose control in a FWD, you are going that much faster and be in a much worst situation than a RWD, which would have lost control long before that.
Look, I dont even know why we are talking about this, with technologies like traction control and stability controls, the only difference between a FWD and a RWD is that FWD have better traction in rain and snow.
#694 of 1084 MooreTorque's law....
Jun 28, 2003 (8:51 pm)
The better 4WD(FWD, West) system you have, the deeper into the woods (or other "stuff") you get before you get stuck!
Traction and stability (and ABS) controls are also available on RWD, although it was the hazards of FWD that first led to their need and development.
Before you jump on me go out and test that 300HP FWD Caddy on the slippery stuff and see how quickly it dethrottles. NO hesitation!
The RWD GS430 applies braking first and gives the driver a few milliseconds to react and lift, adjust, moderate, the throttle before dethrottling on its own. Caddy can't do that because with FWD those few milliseconds can mean the difference between life and death
And do you know that it was the high compression FWD braking torque of that very same Northstar engine that led GM to develop an over-running clutch (driven wheels can't "drive" the engine)to prevent their remaining loyal customer(s) from killing themselves?
With FWD you cannot, MUST NOT, take any chances on inadvertantly, unknowingly, losing traction on those front wheels. To losing traction on our driven wheels those of us with RWD would say, so what!