Sign In Join 



Ford Escape Mazda Tribute Maintenance and Repair

3838 messages,  Last post on Nov 16, 2009 at 5:01 PM

You are in the Ford Escape Forum. Your Hosts are steve_ & tidester

What is this discussion about? Ford Escape, Mazda Tribute, SUV


Messages Page 172 of 385
1
...
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
...
385
Prev
Next
Last
Go To Msg #
Search This Discussion

#1705 of 3838
Where to start.. by wwest
Aug 08, 2002 (9:55 am)
Reply
Mold, mildew, dirty gym sock odors, windshield fogging.
 
These have always been a problem ever since air conditioning started being used in cars.
 
At the heart of any A/C system is the evaporator, cooling heat exchanger. Liquid refrigerant is "injected" into the inside of this heat exchanger and as "warm" airflow is forced over the outside the refrigerant inside "boils" as it absorbs the outside airflow's warmth. The result is the outside airflow can be cooled as low as 33F. The liquid refrigerant "injection" rate is metered in various ways so the the evaporator's cooling surfaces do not decline below freezing.
 
Cold air cannot sustain, hold, as much moisture (gaseous water, water in the atmosphere as a gas) as warm air, so oftentimes as the A/C system cools the airflow its relative humidity level rises to saturation and that results in the gaseous water condensing out of the airflow and onto the evaporator cooling surfaces as dew.
 
This is why the evaporator's temperature cannot be allowed to decline below 33F, if it did the condensate would freeze and the evaporator would then be blocked to all airflow. The chamber, plenum, containing the evaporator is provided with a water drain near the bottom so as the moisture accumulates into larger and larger dropplets they can flow freely out the drain.
 
Note that as long as the A/C operates and the incoming outside airflow's relative humidity is high enough the building of condensate levels on the evaporator surfaces is a continuing, continuous, process.
 
So when you drive into your garage in the evening and shut the A/C system down there will always remain a thin film of condensate on those surfaces. And that thin film of condensate will remain in place until the A/C plenum temperature rises to a level, and for a long enough period, for the condensate to begin to evaporating.
 
Note that if there is no substantial airflow route, convection or otherwise, the atmosphere within the plenum will be super-saturated with moisture when you start the car up the next morning.
 
Bacterial (mold and mildew) growth. These bacteria thrive mightily, multiply at an tremendous rate, in a damp and dark environment that remains at 55 to 70F for relatively long periods, say Tucson or Phoenix at night in the summertime.
 
Then in the early ninties automotive manufacturers started converting their A/C system from freon to the LESS EFFICIENT r-134a, and the mold and mildew and windshield fogging problem has been like a snowball rolling downhill ever since, gathering speed and mass as it goes.
 
more...
#1706 of 3838
A/C continued by wwest
Aug 08, 2002 (10:41 am)
Reply
Speed and MASS.

Since R-134a is less efficient than the freon it replaced, the loss of efficiency had to be overcome somehow.

I'll use my 1992 LS400 as an example. My 1984 T-bird's A/C evaporator had approximatly 2500 square inches of heat exhanging, metal cooling surface area. The 1992 LS400's evaporator had over 10,000 square inches of metal cooling surface area (the LS was not converted to R-134a until later, but Lexus advised me that the A/C system had been designed even with the first LS model with the conversion to R-134a in mind)

At about the same time a passenger airbag was added and then an in-dash CD changer/player. So at about the same time the A/C evaporator had to become more complex to make up for the loss of refrigerant efficiency it was also growing more compact.

Begin to sound like a sponge, maybe? Well not yet.

By 92 Lexus had discovered that the "new" A/C, designed and manufactured by NipponDenso, Denso US here, was the source of the horrid mold and mildew odors that customers were complaining about. So they came up with a solution, embed an anti-bacterial chemical onto the evaporator's cooling surfaces, KILL them suckers before they multiply.

How did they do THAT?

They coated the entire evaporator surface area, all 10,000 square inches, with a PORUS nylon film, dipped it into the anti-bacterial chemical and until the chemical leached out of the pores no mold or mildew could survive, let alone thrive.

But just guess what the result was once the chemical leached out of the pores? Now you didn't just have 10,000 square inches of surface area, you had 10,000 square inches of SPONGE covered surface area.

From about early January and into the fall or 1992 the LS400 remained parked becuase it couldn't be trusted not to suddenly and spontaneously, without any warning or indication whatsoever, completely fog over the front windshield.

By the fall of 92 I had analyzed the system well enough to begin to understand what was happening and I began religiously opening the sunroof and windows slightly each and every night once it was in the garage.

There remains a flaw to this day with the entire Lexus product line, or any automatic climate control system designed by NipponDenso or Denso US. They simply don't seem to grasp the laws of physics as they pertain to the occassional need to quickly defog/demist the front windshield and keep it defogged/demisted. More about this later.

Another aspect of the operation of the 92 Lexus, and actually many other modern day vehicles, even my 01 C4, is the fact that the A/C compressor remains operational even with outside temperatures below freezing.

The only reasonable explanation for this was given to me recently by a Porsche factory representative. He said that it is Porsche's method of suppressing the horrid mold and mildew smell, if the A/C evaporator surfaces are kept coated, continuously, with a thin film of moisture, then that that covers and suppresses the mold and mildew bacteria and thus the smell of their chemical "out-gassing".

Help for Ford and Maxda owners.

On browsing the internet you will find that Ford, if you complain mightily, will "cure" the mold and mildew odor problem by installing a product like, or maybe this actual product"

http://www.airsept.com/eed.html

I understand that many Saturn models come from the factory equipped with an equivalent device.

Mazda, in australia, still makes use of the anti-bacterial chemical coating as I described earlier, so for you Mazda owner's maybe you should be prepared for episodes of sudden windshield fogging and heavy mold and mildew odors once the chemical leaches from the "sponge".

#1707 of 3838
by steve_ HOST
Aug 08, 2002 (10:57 am)
Reply
Thanks Willard!

Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
#1708 of 3838
AC WOW by jwbet
Aug 08, 2002 (11:05 am)
Reply
Thank you for that incredible explanation, Wwest. And thank you, Steve, for contacting Wwest for help. I will suggest some of what was said in that message (especially the AirSept system) if needed when I speak with the Mazda representative. I will post whatever information I can regarding this situation. Why don't all the Tribute systems suffer from this problem? I am not the only one to own a Tribute in high humidity areas that are conducive to the condensation/bacterial growth problem. Thanks again for your help. jwbet
#1709 of 3838
A/C solutions by wwest
Aug 08, 2002 (11:32 am)
Reply
When the A/C system is first shut down the A/C evaporator will likely be at about 33F and covered with a thin film of condensed moisture.
 
Depending on the ambient temperature, it might take hours for the evaporator and its "surround" to rise in temperature to a level in which the condensate begins to evaporate into the "local" atmosphere. "Local" might mean, be restricted too, the atmosphere only within the A/C evaporator plenum alone.
 
Absent an airflow path, convection maybe, once the local atmosphere becomes so super-saturated with moisture the majority of the condensate is left on the evaporator surfaces.
 
That was the case with my Lexus.
 
Starting out on a cool or cold morning, the Lexus climate control will not activate the blower motor until the engine cooling water jacket rises to 130F, so as to not discomfort the passengers with a rush of cold airflow to their faces. Additionally, they "baffle" the natural airflow due to the car's forward motion by forcing a reversal of flow direction, until the blower starts up all system airflow is routed toward to interior windshield surface.
 
So if you own any Lexus, or quite possibly any vehicle with a Denso design, you can expect to oftentimes encounter, about 5 miles down the road on a cool or cold morning, a suddenly fogged over windshield at about the instant that blower motor starts up.
 
The final solution(s), which I'm quite confident the manufacturers will come around to within the next five to ten years, is to use a POWERED exhauster port. Passenger cabin atmospheric exhaust fan/blower that activates:
 
1. If any defog/demist mode, partial or full, is activated.
 
2. If the rear window defog is activated.
 
3. At any time the A/C has been shut down and the A/C evaporator temperature begins it rise to an evaporative level.
 
4. Any time the cabin atmosphere's RH or CO2 levels rise 10% above the outside levels.
 
Something I still don't comprehend..
 
In the clear majority of circumstances Lexus/Denso relies SOLELY on the dehumidification capabilities of the A/C system to remove condensation from the windshield in either defog/demist mode. And this doesn't pertain only to Lexus, it appears to be an industry wide oversight.
 
If your A/C system can be functional for dehumidification purposes then it is quite reasonable to use it as an aid, along with tons of HEATED airflow, to defog/demist the windshield and windows.
 
Operating the A/C with outside temperatures below 55F and with no substantial level of radiant heating is nothing more than a waste of gasoline. A HUGE waste at cruising speeds wherein the A/C compressor contributes a substantial portion of the engine loading.
 
With outside temperatures below 47F, and lower, the RH levels must be extreme (for most regions of the US) for the A/C system to contribute any level of helpfulness (airflow dehumidification) for defog/demist functionality.
 
Yet today that is exactly what many manufacturers recommend, still.
 
Lexus, at least, or at last, is partially acknowledging that they understand the problem. LS430's built for the Canadian market have electrically heated front windshields. It's as if Lexus thinks there is some magical climate control going on between the borders. Or of course it is entirely possible that Canada has some laws with teeth regarding the ability of a vehicle to quickly clear the windshield of condensation and. keep it that way. It was, after all, the Canadians who put resolve into the DRL issue.
#1710 of 3838
Stall problem revisited by deserttan
Aug 08, 2002 (12:09 pm)
Reply
Took my 2001 ES-V6 into the dealer to fix the stall problem (had copied the
service bulletin from this message board). They re-flashed the PCM. Definitely
affects the tach. No longer stalls going downhill at 40MPH. Noticed that the RPMs
are higher on the downhill coasting now. They asked no questions, just performed the service,
no charge.
#1711 of 3838
Helpful, maybe by wwest
Aug 08, 2002 (12:31 pm)
Reply
1992 LS400 DIY modifications.
 
May have application otherwise, elsewhere.
 
OAT (Outside Air Temperature)sensor. Lexus uses this sensor in the control loop for the cabin climate control but it is also used, at least in the earlier models, to determine when to shut down the A/C compressor circuit. If the outside temperature declined below about 34F then the A/C compressor clutch was automatically opened.
 
During actual use of the 92 LS it would not take very long after the A/C compressor circuit was opened for the A/C evaporator temperature to begin to rise and that would then result in a continuously rising RH within the passenger cabin due to condensate now released from the evaporator surfaces. If the windshield happened to be cool from cold outside airflow impinging on it at 60MPH you would very soon find yourself staring at an opaque (fogged over) windshield.
 
I discovered that there were numerous occassions when the predominant outside temperature was below freezing yet the windshield would spontaneously fog over as if the A/C compressor had stopped after having been operational for some period.
 
What was happening was the OAT sensor, mounted on the backside of the front bumper directly forward of the radiator, was being affected, heated, by the radiant heat coming from the radiator at low speeds, at long traffic lights, and in stop and go traffic.
 
I moved the sensor into the front of the passenger side fender well. I have subsequently noted that some manufacturers have moved this sensor to the drivers side outside rear view mirror to prevent this from happening. For their part Lexus now uses the evaporator's downstream airflow temperature to determine when to open the A/C compressor clutch circuit.
 
I also used this sensor circuit for yet another purpose. I found that if I added 2500 ohms in series with this sensor then a 47F actual OAT the system thought it was below freezing. I used the resister, switched into the circuit during the winter months to preven operation of the A/C compressor anytime the ambient was below 47F.
 
My 92 LS has four 12 volt "muffin" fans, two in each quarter panel, that I added. They are used as automatic cabin atmosphere extraction/exhaust fans when the front defog/demist mode or the rear window defog heating is activated. The LS's factory cabin airflow exhaust route is quite thoroughly baffled, I'm sure to restrict the airflow (close the refigerator door and keep the MPG rating up).
 
Additionally, the "final" outlet ports are located at the bottom of the rear quarter panels where I have little doubt that a reasonably high air pressure exists "at speed". Absent my extraction fans or an extremely high system blower speed to pressurize the cabin the RH would simply build and build, especially with a goodly number of adults in the car.
 
The third(?), last modification, involved the IAT (Interior Air Temperature) sensor. Once the Lexus cabin atmosphere temperature nears or reaches the setpoint, typically 72F for me, the climate control's (full) defog/demist mode will actually route airflow cooler than the setpoint by as much as 20F.
 
If I should activate the defog/demist mode, I just might be doing so because the windshield is completely misted over. IMMHO any system that does not instantly make the utmost effort to defog the swindshield is quite seriously FLAWED.
 
Until Denso established an american presense, and even today with most european vehicles, activating defog/demist would/will instantly get you MASS windshield airflow routing, a higher blower speed and the re-heat mixing vane moved to the Max heat position. The A/C system might or might not remain in operation, on come on-line with defog operation.
 
On the hottest day of the year my 01 C4 will quite thoroughly discomfort me by blowing LOTS of hot airflow to my face, reflected from the windshield, and I do not care, mind, in the least, not one iota.
 
On the numerous occassions when my LS windshield would suddenly fog over it was a difficult procedure to quickly "tune" the system to most quickly remove the fog. Activate the defog function, then raise the blower speed manualy since "it" didn't, then start "toggling" the setpoint rocker switch, each toggle raising the setpoint 1 degree F, 72 to 85 (max).
 
Nowadays I simply reach down by my right knee and flip a switch adding a resister in series with the IAT sensor, making the system "think" the cabin has suddenly gotten damn cold, then by the time I reach back up and activate the full defog function the system has raised the airflow heating level to max and the blower speed to HIGH.
 
With my 01 AWD RX300 a few things had changed.
 
The OAT sensor is no longer used to signal a shutdown of the A/C compressor. Additionally even if I manually turn off the A/C compressor the system will still activate it, without illuminating the indicator, in either defog/demist mode.
 
So I added a switch in series with the system's high/low refrigerant pressure "limit" switches which I open in the wintertime to completely prevent the A/C compressor from operating.
 
The Rx's temperature setpoint control is a "twist" knob, and thus all I need do to move it to Max heat when I need defog mode is a quick clockwise "flip"/spin.
Hope some of this helps.
#1712 of 3838
Helps! by jwbet
Aug 08, 2002 (12:39 pm)
Reply
Thanks again, Wwest! You have an amazing store of information about these systems. I am printing out the lot of it. Wish us luck as we try to combat the problem.
Best regards,
Jwbet
#1713 of 3838
Pollen filter... by wwest
Aug 08, 2002 (12:56 pm)
Reply
Apparently the high end Toyota Highlander comes equipped with filter and filter tray but the low end HL does not. You can upgrade the low end models by buying the holder and filter.
 
So the Ford escape not coming with one doesn't surprise me.
 
And to my knowledge they are ONLY pollen filters, no odor (smog) combating capabilities nor any anti-microbe chemicals.
 
I neglected to mention FOOD for the growth of bacteria. The Pollen filter will prevent some of the airborne food the mold and mildew bacteria rely upon but not likely enough to prevent their growth, especially the flimsy Toyota/Lexus version.
 
Having many times in the past had to clean leaves, bugs, insects, mouse turds, and other miscellaneous debris that over time accumulates and will block much of the airflow through air conditioner evaporators I suspect that the primary reason pollen filters have become more commonplace is to prevent that level of debris from entering the system.
 
The filter in my 01 C4 is virtaully the equivalent to the 3M filtrete furnace filter, highly efficient and thus short-lived, while the one in teh RX is about as flimsy as one could get.

Messages Page 172 of 385
1
...
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
...
385
Prev
Next
Last
Go To Msg #
Search This Discussion
To POST a message, please Sign In.

New? Join Now!

Forum Tools

Please sign in.
Email Address:

Password:

Forgot Password?

Search Forums

Enter Keyword(s)

Advanced Search

Browse by Vehicle



View All Vehicles
Advertisement
Ask the Community
See What People Are Asking

Browse by Board

Browse by Topic


View All Topics

Today's Chats

Advertisement