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Toyota 4Runner, SUV
#3183 of 11429 jeffjeff and the 2002 last of the 3rd Gen 4Runner "deals" [Part 1]
Oct 02, 2002 (5:47 am)
jeffjeff, that handle sounds familiar . . . were you around here in 1999-2000 talking about a possible 3rd Gen??? - like you, I love the 3rd Gen and almost bought a 2000 at one point, but decided to hold out for the redesign due to my own desire for more than 183 HP (especially when the Pathfinder debuted its 2001 redesign with 240 HP). Everything for the last few months has been '03s, spy shots, rumors, dates, etc. - but here's my 2 cents for you and anyone else thinking about an alleged "deal" on a 2002 (because I've been "in the thick" of the market the last few weeks "dueling" with the dealers and got the bottom line numbers for you).
The best you will do on a 2002 is (and the fine print can be confusing): Invoice - 1,500 September Rebate (some dealers are now only giving 1,000 from October 1 through the 10th, when the '03 is scheduled to debut) - 578 (assuming they have paid for it and are willing to eat their holdback) + O processing fee (trust me, you do not need to pay that charge). Even with two dealers on the ropes at 8 PM on the last day of September, by 10 PM the best they would do is "something" around that price formula. Anything below that and you have a no-go as they do not want to lose any money and will wait for the more impulsive buyer to show up - some dealers have not paid for the vehicles yet and therefore can afford to wait. To me, their thinking seems to be that when the '03s come in this month (they will all be V8 Limiteds in the upper $30Ks) and people hit the lots to check them out, they think they will easily sell a great "deal" on an upper $20K '02 to that same person who can not wait until January when the V6 SR5s and Sports show up.
My advice: 1) Wait the three months; learn to love the new look. Or, 2) shop elsewhere and let your dollars do the talking.
Here's why. Take a standard '02 SR5 with SP sport package and the core basic stuff (SR, RH, R1, etc.) that you see advertised in one of those "Blowout" sales in the Washington Post (you could use any trim level, just start with invoice). The Invoice with options is say $29,800. Subtract the 1,500 (if you can still get it this month) and the 578 (if you can pull that off) and you get a final price of $27,772, plus T/T/T of ~1,100, and you are at $30K out the door.
I can understand that none of us want to stick it to the dealer, but the problem is for the customer, at this point in time, this is not a "deal." (Again, all you guys who bought '02s back when you did - smart move on a classic 3rd Gen truck! - I'm not opening a debate here. Maybe I should have bought as well, and then enjoyed the past 3 years!) Ok, the new '03s are thought to have base prices running from 27K to 37K - we'll have the exact pricing soon enough. [All the dealers have told me that they are of course after MSRP on these.]
With that price range, even at MSRP, however, you could get a very nicely optioned V6 2003 SR5 or Sport for around 34K in January. Have you looked over the standard features?! The interior?! 245 HP?! Wow! If you like the new exterior look, then all very much worth waiting the 3 months IMHO; only a few thousand more to pay, which does very little to the monthly payment.
For those who can't wait (guessing that they are the same type who stays away from American), my guess is that they could be better interested in the '02/'03 Pathfinders with 240 HP. Nissan is selling their top-of-the-line Loaded LE's with leather, every option, etc. for exactly the same price as what you would pay now for the 'O2 SR5 Runner (that's their sales angle). I drove a Pathy in 2000 (before the redesign) and it was a joke. I just drove an '02 for kicks-and-giggles with the new engine and oh-my-god, even I had to admit that it was the feeling I had been waiting for in the new Runner (not a bad interior now and its a great monochromatic in SuperBlack!). Now, the Pathy is not my bag (the '01s had a lot of kinks that eventually got worked out), but if you will be using an SUV mostly for daily driving, etc., you have to at least go drive one. I refused all these years and was pleasantly surprised for the price.
It makes sense, too. The SUV HP wars began in 2000/2001 and that has been all the rage in these vehicles. Toyota's sales on the 2001 4Runners dropped 20% from the previous year due to the HP issue, and for 2002 they are apparently worse I am told. So, at this time (again no offense to my loyal 3rd Gens), I would suggest waiting 3 months or getting a better "value" on the Pathy for basically the same price.
On the '02 4Runners, its a lose-lose situation for the customer and dealer. Dealers can't eat their shirts on these, but the customer can't be under the impression that 30K is a good deal at this time. Instead, the customer should know what they are getting and understand it before making the decision to buy - this said, I imagine Toyota will be able to sell these '02s with no problem because many of us are willing to overpay for what we consider a fine product. :/
jeffjeff, like you, I am one of those customers who will pay a bit more for a Toyota (but also a value-conscious shopper, hence why I like Toyota in the first place). I love the 3rd Gen and attempted to turn one of these '02 "deals" into something that can compete with the new '03s HP-wise, but the numbers don't add up. To up the 3rd Gen 183 HP to 260 HP, I can buy a Toyota Racing Division (TRD) supercharger, trans oil cooler, and boost gauge from ETOYOTAS.COM for ~$2,600 (hence, the true cost most be below that for them to sell at that price). With the rebates, the '03s about to hit the shelves, and the desire to get an '02 off the lot before the 10th, you figure you could get a dealer to sell that SR5 Sport '02 for an offer to pay (before T/T/T) Invoice or Invoice plus 500$ if they included the parts and labor on a TRD package. As we saw in previous posts (which I confirmed), the dealer's cost on labor is only around $320 (8 hours x $40), which they should just throw in given the market. But the kicker: they claim they have to shell out ~ $3K to Parts Dept. for the TRD package parts. Give me a break. Dealerships are like a bunch a little stores (parts, service, sales, etc.) - they should integrate more to be able to deal out "true costs" in these situations (i.e., I should not be able to buy from etoyotas.com, a dealer in Texas, for less than their alleged costs). [They may have no choice, but notice I said "SHOULD BE ABLE."] So, jeffjeff, if you have a plan to get the 3rd Gen looks you love but want the HP of the new '03s, you are out of luck - unless you want to pay: Invoice + $3,290 (TRD package parts and labor) - 1,500 September Rebate (some dealers are now only giving 1,000) - 578 (assuming they eat their holdback).
#3184 of 11429 jeffjeff and the 2002 last of the 3rd Gen 4Runner "deals" [Part 2]
Oct 02, 2002 (5:48 am)
So, for all those who love the 3rd Gen, wanted it a little wider, and a little more HP, you just better learn to like the new look of the '03s. I'm trying . . . but not too crazy about paying 39K for an almost-monochromatic black '03 Limited, complete with silver running boards, silver roof racks, and silver skunk-like bumper "stripes." Sheesh . . .
Oct 02, 2002 (6:34 am)
You forgot to mention that on those ads in the Post, you must also pay a processing fee (yes, if you start out at a higher figure, you can negotiate it but not when starting on a loss leader) and freight which is $510.
I also want to point out that the incentives did change this month. We have $1000 customer rebates PLUS $500 in dealer cash until the 14th at which point, it drops to a flat $750 dealer cash with no customer rebate.
#3186 of 11429 Thanks Cliffy.
Oct 02, 2002 (6:49 am)
I figured the 1,500 was in essence still around in some form. I did mention the processing fee in my original formula [and the freight is included in my Invoice number], but had it at a "0" as there are loss leaders in MD without the fee and the numbers from my experience there basically crunch as I have posted. However, if I am missing something, then paying the extra $200-$500 "processing fees" out there only reinforces my point: 1) Wait the three months; learn to love the new look; or, 2) shop elsewhere and let your dollars do the talking. Come the 15th, the $750 dealer cash tells me that Toyota does think they can get more on the '02s then (selling them against the 39K Limiteds) than now . . . I hope the consumer is more sophisticated than Toyota thinks. But, hey, we could be wrong here - Toyota could announce one of those "surprise" new rebates that none of us, even the dealers, knew would happen before then. Buying a car should be much less "fun" . . .
Oct 02, 2002 (6:56 am)
There is a very good reason Toyota is lowering the incentives on the 14th. They want us to get rid of the 2002s before then. All of them. The dealers know that the incentives get worse at the exact time the new one hits our lots so dealers will be looking to dump the 2002s at all costs. Most dealers are nearly out of the 2002s anyway. The only ones left are those that arrived in the last couple of weeks and they need to vanish quickly.
Oct 02, 2002 (7:18 am)
Ok, I can buy that. Good point. But there are enough '02s around on the lots given demand (yes, some lots are out - lucky for them.) So, we'll see what I find out on the evening of the 14th versus, say on the 18th, and I'll report back here the info. for the Edmunds consumer. I still say Invoice - 1,500 - 578 + 0 processing + $2600 for a TRD package parts and labor (check out trdusa.com) is the best bet for anyone who loves the looks of the 3rd Gen '02 and wants the HP of the new redesign.
#3189 of 11429 Wheelability?
Oct 02, 2002 (7:41 am)
Does anyone know whether the running boards will be easily removed on an '03? I'm looking to replace my '98 Cherokee Limited with an '03 4Runner. Even with the moderate off-roading I do in Moab and here in Colo., it looks like the mudflaps and boards on the '03 Limited will be candidates for damage.
Also, if anyone has any opinions/experience on how a stock 4runner compares to a stock (with Up Country suspension group) Cherokee off-road, that'd be great to hear too.
Thanks for any help.
#3190 of 11429 No, intmed99...
Oct 02, 2002 (7:43 am)
The 4.7 i-force uses reg.fuel which is why I say if you use reg.in the new six the fuel mileage should be the same if not worse than the 8.
#3191 of 11429 Hard copy of the brochure is available now
Oct 02, 2002 (8:27 am)
we got the new brochures today.
#3192 of 11429 Vixter...where did you get that info??
Oct 02, 2002 (8:44 am)
From what i am seeing (from OFFICIAL Toyota info), the 4.7L V8 (235 HP/320 Torque) needs Premium fuel, same as GX470, LX470, and Land Cruiser. This is NOT an exact duplicate of the Sequoia/Tundra engine (240 HP/ 315 Torque), which uses regular fuel.