Radar/Lidar detectors

Replying to: blane (Dec 27, 2007 5:49 pm)

Again, blane, there's no need to thank me, you're making me blush - I'm really just a hobbyist in that area, and since discovering that not all of my fellow car-lovers know as much about speed-detection countermeasures, I've sorta taken it upon myself to try to bring the rest of us "up to date," even if it is on just the very basic level at which I, myself, understand these devices.
 
What's interesting is that just as there's car-nuts who don't know the difference between a $40 Cobra and a $400 V1, there's also countermeasures enthusiasts who have no desire to either purchase "fancier" vehicles, or to upgrade/modify their current ride. It's almost like two parallel hobbies, with only select members who choose to bridge both sides!
 
The V1 is still, to this day, considered the "king of the open highway." Its extreme sensitivity, combined with directional capability (I'm not really going to count the "Bogey Counter" in this one, as the Bel/Escort products capable of "ExpertMeter" display can be said to also have this capability) makes it the preferred instrument of those who frequent open highways, as well as those who live in rural/suburban areas where there's not excessive false (non-LEO) signals present.
 
My firm belief is that no matter how good of a detector (or other countermeasures) one is equipped with, the biggest determinant of whether or not you'll get a ticket is you - the driver. Discounting "behavior" (i.e. habitual or hyper-speeder, engaging in more hazardous forms of driving on public streets, etc.), one must still realize that no matter what, these detectors - even the top-flight ones - are just tools. Without proper instrument setup as well as the proper interpretation of the device's warnings (and appropriate and timely actions to-follow), you're still virtually guaranteed a ticket, some time down the line, when your luck runs out.
 
Whenever my friends or family ask me if they need a radar/laser detector, I always give them this "canned" answer as my starter:
 
- Speed smart, and most of the time, I'd say that you're fine even without protection.
 
- Speed-stupid, and I can virtually guaranty that you'll get a ticket, no matter how much money you spend on a detector.
 
That's really my core-belief.
 
Each of the top-flight detectors have their own points of excellence, which can easily be their justification for anyone to buy *any* of them (i.e. someone who travels many highway miles may select the V1 for its sensitivity/Arrows, versus someone who does most of his/her commute in-city, who might select the 9500i for its filtering algorithm as well as speed-sensitive sensitivity adjustments, versus someone who lives, say, in VA or in certain areas in Canada, who might choose the Bel STi-Driver for its true-stealth capabilities) - and in all honesty, in the real world (particularly when between-unit production variances are taken into the equation), their performances may be so close that it's virtually indistinguishable. For me, as a person who tends to see things in shades-of-gray to begin with, it's very hard for me to say that anyone's choice in their preferred detector is "right" or "wrong" - as long as their detector meets their needs, I would say that they're just fine.
 
Use such tests as a basic guide - and then superimpose upon them your own usage scenario. That'll lead you to the right detector choice. From there, re-learn through such tests/reviews where your detector's inherent weaknesses and strengths are, and then incorporate that knowledge into your tactical planning. Start your "getting acquainted with the new detector" stages in an area where you're familiar with the true threats as well as ambient noise (i.e. falses), and work to gain confidence in your new instrument - to learn how it responds, and what such signals/warnings may mean. And as time goes on, start implementing the advanced features and experimenting with their settings to achieve maximum end-user confidence, which is what I consider the ultimate goal.
 
Back when I was much younger and much more fit ( and weighed a lot less, too ), my martial arts master ingrained into me the wisdom of the words: "Train like you fight, and fight like you train."
 
Although that might seem like a non-sequitur, consider this:
 
My chosen detector, for going on 4 years now, is the Escort 8500x50. I selected this detector because, from the ride-alongs I've had with friends who owned the V1, I determined that there was no way that my wife - my primary passenger - would put up with that much "noise" coming from the device on a daily basis. Over the years, I've often considered supplementing my countermeasures stock with the purchase of a V1, specifically for use on the highway, when we go on long trips (the V1 also appeals to me tremendously as a "car gadget guy," since so many options are available for its customization/optimization) . However, each time I'm about to pick up the phone to call in the order, I'm reminded of what my Si-Fu said ... and honestly, upon reflection, I would have to say that I would not be able to optimize *MY* usage of the V1 - that I would not be familiar enough with it, used in such an occasional and sporadic manner, to use it to its true potential, and that, in-turn, may cause me to be awarded a ticket, through no fault of the detector.
 
First and foremost, speed-smart. Next, get a good tool, and learn to use it wisely.

Replies to this message:
• blane (Dec 28, 2007 2:20 pm)
  • lgtwrx (Dec 28, 2007 5:29 pm)
  • blane (Dec 28, 2007 5:31 pm)
    • lgtwrx (Dec 29, 2007 5:47 am)

Replying to: tpe (Dec 27, 2007 7:21 pm)

tpe - As I've said to blane, honestly, that's just too much. I'm in no way a guru on this topic, and there's are many, many countermeasures hobbyists who are much, much more knowledgeable in this subject than I am - I'd like to think of myself merely as an ambassador to that field, a guide to help my fellow car-nuts enter that world, to first be equipped with some basic knowledge as well as facts, so that they can better digest the overwhelming information available when they first step-over into the countermeasures community.
 
I thank you for having such a high opinion of me, but honestly, I don't deserve it.
 
In terms of the 9500i versus the 8500x50, currently, there seems to be a bit of a favor on the 9500i in terms of overall sensitivity - whether this will continue to hold (i.e. will this trickle-down to the x50? or will Escort see this as a way to preferentially maintain a performance-gap to their new flagship model, as some carmakers do?) remains a question. Overall, however, the biggest difference is just as you've cited - the various GPS-enabled advance functions that the 9500i is capable of: speed-sensitive band-sensitivity adjustments, known location-marking, and the "TrueLock" feature.
 
For me, the biggest advantages to owning the 9500i - of which I am planning its purchase in the next few days, to be totally honest (I'm taking advantage of the Escort "Trade-In/Trade-Up" promotional, I still have an old 4500 SuperWide hanging around from my high-school/college days, and I'll be trading that one in, while keeping my current x50 [an early-make Rev5 unit] for both backup as well as use in my wife's car) - will be the speed-sensitive band-sensitivity adjustments (which will greatly please my wife - as my primary passenger; she *really* hates the "annoyance" of "those detectors" - as well as keep my two-year-old napping comfortably when I'm running errands) and the known location-marking feature (which will help with my local area's red-light/speed cameras (since I don't frequent many of those areas, I have not yet memorized all of their locations).
 
Currently, I am unable to use the 9500i's TrueLock feature - my local enforcers, in two of my most frequented areas during my daily commutes, do utilize a lot of K-band, and as such, I cannot *safely* lock-out the K-band falses which I come upon in such areas, as the TrueLock technology now stands.
 
This is perhaps best explained by fellow enthusiast RIP-9500I here:
 
http://www.radarreviews.net/forums/escort-passport-radar/56-9500i-truelock-trick- s.html
 
In my case, I'm a "high risk scenario," as he so well puts it.
 
---
 
Per the legalities of the issue:
 
I hesitate to express my opinions as I truly believe that as a countermeasures user, I am treading on dangerous ground when things are viewed from the perspective of "the slippery-slope."
 
Like I said previously, as a car-enthusiast, yes, I've got a couple of catless or partially-de-catted vehicles (sure, they're tuned to the point that they pass even the state's sniffer test, but still, breaking a law is breaking a law) and again, yes, as a driving-enthusiast, I have broken my share of speed limits (OK, so I firmly believe that since I don't want my toddler, who may accidentally step out into our street, run-over by someone who is driving 10+ the 25MPH PSL, that I should in-turn return other parents' and my neighbors' the same courtesy and consideration, and myself not speed through areas such as school-zones, residential side-streets, etc. - but I do confess to exceeding the PSL on open freeways; as such, while I strictly obey some traffic laws, I do, undeniably, break others). As such, I don't think I'm any more morally superior than any other average Joe - so I really can't argue for/against any of this based on such high grounds.
 
However, on a personal level, speaking purely of my own beliefs and feelings, yes, I also feel the same way as you do, that pure, passive DETECTION should not be illegal. I've tried to formulate, in my own mind, many different arguments in this manner, but I guess the best one I came up with is that I just don't see how it's logical - like you said yourself, those "waves" are openly in the air, so why can't we monitor them?
 
My belief here, in this respect, is thus very much, I think, like my personal view of red-light cameras. Although I've only ever run two RED lights, in both of those cases, an 18-wheeler (one was a fully-loaded dump-truck, so technically, that wasn't a tractor-trailer combo) in full lock-up was bearing down on me. In both cases, I saw this potential threat, and scanned ahead into the intersection, and made my own saving move when it was in-turn most safe to do so, with minimal, if any, potential safety impact to my fellow motorists. I don't understand the logic of why an otherwise law-abiding citizen would have to potentially go to court to explain away such a circumstance - to me, it's illogical.
 
But then again, I realize that my own arguments here are on a slippery slope - and this is why I tend to simply shut-up when it comes to issues like these. Instead, I prefer to hold discussions based solely on the technical/factual merits of the devices being discussed - where the debates would not center around one's individual moral/ethical convictions or beliefs (of which, as an American, I strongly believe that EVERYONE has a right to express and to hold dear to themselves, no matter how unpopular or dissenting the sentiment may be), but rather on hard facts that cannot be washed-out with feelings or diluted by emotions.

Replies to this message:
• upstatedoc (Dec 28, 2007 7:34 am)
  • lgtwrx (Dec 28, 2007 8:29 am)
    • upstatedoc (Dec 28, 2007 8:56 am) and 1 more...

Replying to: lgtwrx (Dec 28, 2007 6:59 am)

Replies to this message:
• lgtwrx (Dec 28, 2007 8:29 am)
  • upstatedoc (Dec 28, 2007 8:56 am)
    • lgtwrx (Dec 28, 2007 9:20 am)

Replying to: upstatedoc (Dec 28, 2007 7:34 am)

I'm eager to get my purchase of the 9500i done, too. But being a family man with a limited "fun" budget - I've been skipping a few lunches.
 
You didn't completely miss the mark, upstatedoc, but there should be a little caution taken here, too.
 
TrueLock does work, but as the technology stands now, there are still some residual risks.
 
I honestly think that the best approach to learning about the potential issues that may be caused by TrueLock are explained best by fellow countermeasures hobbyist/enthusiast RIP-9500I, whose post on this issue, on a countermeasures Forum, I referenced above:
 
http://www.radarreviews.net/forums/escort-passport-radar/56-9500i-truelock-trick- - - s.html
 
Look at his "risk scenarios" presentation - "No Risk," "Low Risk," and "High Risk."
 
See which of those scenarios best-fits your situation and driving needs, and weigh your own risk-assessment accordingly.
 
 
 
For me, just because of how my local enforcement presents, I fit into the "High Risk" scenario. From the standpoint of how Escort's software/firmware processes TrueLock on the 9500i, I currently, thus, do not feel comfortable using this feature on my daily driving (commute/errands) circuit.
 
Nevertheless, it can be said that Escort is being very, very professional and very, very responsive to the needs of their product users and enthusiasts/hobbyists (both in terms of cars/driving as well as countermeasures), and have addressed many of the early faults/bugs of the 9500i, at their cost (including shipping), in an effort to truly make this model their flagship item.
 
Just a few months ago, I was at a point that while I really lusted after the 9500i, I wasn't about to purchase one - and also advised my friends/family of the same - due to the bugs that were still present on the unit. Earlier this month, seeing the evolutionary upgrades/revisions given the 9500i to address the earlier concerns and reading about others' purchases and their satisfaction with the product, I've finally become comfortable with a purchase recommendation, and also had started saving-up for this detector, myself (to replace my Rev5 x50 as my primary detector).
 
I am honestly going to purchase the 9500i within the next week, taking advantage of their "Trade-In/Trade-Up" program.
 
I have no doubt that while right now, TrueLock doesn't really fit my precise needs due to the usage-risks involved, that in the near future, this will also be addressed by Escort.

Replies to this message:
• upstatedoc (Dec 28, 2007 8:56 am)
  • lgtwrx (Dec 28, 2007 9:20 am)

Replying to: tpe (Dec 27, 2007 7:21 pm)

Replying to: lgtwrx (Dec 28, 2007 8:29 am)

Thanks for the link, yeah, I think I'm in the high risk scenario.

Replies to this message:
• lgtwrx (Dec 28, 2007 9:20 am)

Replying to: upstatedoc (Dec 28, 2007 8:56 am)

Indeed, upstatedoc .
 
Although I do have high-hopes for Escort to further refine the TrueLock feature, I am pretty certain that I will not be using that feature, for the time being, on my current everyday drive.
 
Still, with the speed-sensitive feature, my hopes is that the 9500i will be even quieter than my x50, given my super-dense-"falsing" locale, combined with the fact that for at least 75% of the time, my road-speeds (oftentimes, parking-lot) in such areas should be low enough to render such falsing concerns a thing of the past.
 
For me, the x50 was - and the 9500i will be - a compromise that I made/make based on my lifestyle needs. Although I would love a detector as sensitive and as tactically-minded as the V1, the fact of having my wife and/or my child in the car with me for most of my non-commute driving and for the fact that my daily commute is so densely populated with false-alerts, having sufficient filtering is something that helps to preserve my sanity (to say nothing of my wife's).
 
I think that with a detector purchase, with today's technology, everyone should be honest to themselves when examining their true needs and preferences. The fact of the matter is that any and all of the top-flight detectors (and even select "second tier" models) will easily fulfill the performance needs of every last one of us. It's the other aspects of "living with the detector" - the compromises that must be made - that should, IMveryHO, be the basis of the purchase decision.

Replying to: lgtwrx (Dec 28, 2007 5:53 am)

Replies to this message:
• lgtwrx (Dec 28, 2007 5:29 pm)
• blane (Dec 28, 2007 5:31 pm)
  • lgtwrx (Dec 29, 2007 5:47 am)

Replying to: blane (Dec 28, 2007 2:20 pm)

Indeed, blane, that's a great counterpoint, and I thank you for having brought that up. There are those options, and even more -
 
http://www.valentine1.com/lab/MikesLabRpt3.asp
 
With the ability to initially mute audible warnings for the most false-prone band in terms of in-city use, theoretically, the V1 should prove no more "annoying" to detector non-users/detractors than any other instrument of its genre - and with the active participation of the end-user (i.e. hitting the mute button in-time), it should be, theoretically, just as quiet and well-behaved as a "quieter" detector.
 
This is what I have wished, myself, but in-execution, I have yet to have a ride-along with anyone using the V1, even with such advanced-programming in-place, in which the ride was as false-free as with even my x50, set to "CityLoX," and with POP alert "off."
 
I honestly can't say whether or not if this is just the fault of those users - i.e. maybe they don't know how or haven't quite managed to (or haven't had the inclination to - and this is something I'll get to in just a moment) get the settings just right in order to minimize the detector voicing un-necessarily in dense urban areas. I'm, quite frankly, still searching for a ride-along with just such a user - who has optimized their settings so as to be able to satisfy my (or rather, the wifey's) needs in this respect.
 
Similarly, there are those out there - the purists - who see the behavior of the V1, in reporting EVERYTHING and ANYTHING, as a trait that they are not only willing to live with, but as something that they specifically seek. In this manner, they are perhaps the ultimate detection fanatics in that they want the detector to report everything - including false positives, no matter how numerous - and in-turn use their own judgement and experience to act as the final informational/tactical "filter." Unfortunately for me, the few hard-core countermeasures hobbyists whom I've met or have conversed with, whom I've expressed an interest in seeing just how well a well-programmed V1 can handle my noise-filled daily commute, have been of this conviction, and thus unable to help me. While I greatly respect these purists - and that I harbor a desire to be among their ranks - I know that, in the real-world demand of my daily commute as well as from my family/passengers, this kind of usage is impossible.
 
To me, the Escort detectors that I've chosen are compromises, and I feel that everyone should be honest to themselves in making such decisions and compromises, so that their end-use is, itself, a best-match for their true needs.
 
Aside: For me, the use of the Escort detectors is also in-part based on my desire to have an integrated threat-indicator/jammer solution when it comes to laser threats. Yes, the V1 is likely the most sensitive detector when it comes to alerting to laser, but it still trails the dedicated laser-receiver models, such as the ZR3 and its fellow Escort sisters, in terms of detection capability (likely due in-part to the V1's typical in-vehicle placement, which will offset it from receiving direct hits and is skewed rather in-favor of trying to catch reflections/deflections/"scatter." In using the ZR3 as a layer of my active laser defense (which includes both the LPP as well as the LI as my true primary jammers), I am actually utilizing its integration into the x50 (and the 9500i) more so that I can get a clear and quick front-vs.-rear threat indication, which will allow me to respond better, tactically, in terms of both locating the threat as well as allowing me to properly disengage from that threat, without compromising protection from the other aspect of the vehicle (note that while my distinct front-and-rear LPP setup, using two separate control boxes, allows for a front-versus-rear set of indicator LEDs to be present on my dashboard, the proximity with which I've mounted them relative to each other does not allow me effective (nor safe/timely) tactical response to an incoming threat in that, visually, it's very hard to reference. This is yet another reason why I am staying with the Escort detectors, yet another reason of my compromise.

Replying to: blane (Dec 28, 2007 2:20 pm)

Replies to this message:
• lgtwrx (Dec 29, 2007 5:47 am)