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Subaru Forester (up to 2005) - READ ONLY
18028 messages, Last post on Nov 02, 2006 at 7:19 AM
You are in the Subaru Forester Forum.- Your Host is kcram
What is this discussion about? Subaru Forester, Wagon
#12847 of 18028 hot air and airbag facts by allhorizon
Dec 04, 2003 (1:24 am)
I think it is good to be concerned with vehicle safety, but I also think it is important to keep the facts straight.There have not been hundred's of death associated with driver's side airbags. Also, there is no such thing as a first-generation and second-generation airbag.
Firstly, NHTSA keeps statistics of deaths and serious injuries resulting from airbags in minor or moderate crashes. They list a total of 77 cases involving drivers in the past 13 years, 28 of which were small women (they mention < 6'2" - this is probably a typo - I think they mean 5'2").
Secondly, it has long been known that airbag injuries depend strongly on the deployment direction and a host of other details. The above-mentioned statistics show that the vast majority of recorded cases involve midsize to large American cars and trucks. Only about 1/4 involved Japanese-designed cars. There are no European manufactures with problems listed, and not a single Subaru. And for the past eight years or so, manufacturers have continuously improved airbag design and deployment to the point that the Institute for Highway Safety says that drivers are probably not at risk in cars build after 1998 .
From that alone, a reasonable person should in my opinion be more concerned with other safety issues than this one, when deciding to by a vehicle in general, and a Subaru in particular.
There are also known measures and recommendation how to avoid airbag complications for small drivers. The simplest of these involves making sure to maintain a distance of at least 10" to 12" away from the airbag cover, by moving the seat as far up as feasible, not pointing the steering wheel up, and by reclining the seatback a little, if possible. Moving the seat up is very easy to do in a Forester, and given better vision, is likely a desirable driving position for small drivers at any rate.
- D.
#12848 of 18028 allhorizon, by ballistic
Dec 04, 2003 (7:13 am)
They list a total of 77 cases involving drivers in the past 13 years, 28 of which were small womenThank you for the links. They do much more than merely refute reckless claims that "hundreds" of deaths were directly caused by airbags. They also validate my main thesis: Of the 77 listed cases, fewer than 30 of the decedents were wearing their seatbelts!
It is intellectually dishonest to bandy scary triple-digit numbers about and claim that the airbags "killed" that many people. When occupants of moving vehicles fail to take even the most basic measures to protect themselves from harm (such as simply using the tried-and-true lap-and-shoulder belts that have been in all cars for decades), then the inescapable reality is that their deaths are more likely due to their own stupidity than to excessive force that may or may not have been applied by their airbags.
The absence of critical thinking that infects debate on subjects such as this always amazes me.
#12849 of 18028 Let's ... by tidester
Dec 04, 2003 (7:42 am)
... DROP the characterizations of other posters and stick to ISSUES.tidester, host
#12850 of 18028 Forester has 2nd gen air bags... by ateixeira
Dec 04, 2003 (9:30 am)
The problem has to do with perception - we see news coverage on all the silly lawsuits and not often enough on the rightful ones.Heck, most lawyers never step in to a court room, right? So there's a majority, and we know little about them!
Any how, I specifically remember Subaru advertising that the 1998 Forester had 2nd generation air bags, that deploy with less force. In fact this was the topic I wrote to them about in Drive magazine, and my letter was published. It was a big deal to me because my wife was pregnant when I bought it. In the photo I'm holding the baby, even.
I think you may be referring to the latest generation of air bags (3rd?) that deploys at different forces depending upon the severity of the collision.
-juice
#12851 of 18028 My Subie by casecom2
Dec 04, 2003 (11:12 am)
Hi everybody ... I haven't checked in for a while, but I thought I'd give you all an update and ask a couple of questions while I'm at it.I bought my Cayenne Red XS Premium (auto) in June, replacing a 96 Honda Civic sedan. It's my daily driver, and we used it a few times this summer for trips up to northern Minnesota. Currently I'm at 5,100 miles (I have a short commute).
I really enjoy the car and plan on keeping it for a long time. It's fun to drive, the small size makes it practical for the city. (I live in St. Paul, the city where Jesse Ventura once said the narrow streets were "laid out by drunken Irishmen.") And I've made good use of the cargo are in back, of course. The engine seems to have the ideal amount of power for my needs.
I have the premium stereo, with tweeters, upgraded speakers, sub ... very nice. The significant other hasn't gotten used to feeling the bass in her butt in the passenger seat though
Just one bit of buyer's remorse: I'm not sure I'd get the premium package next time. The moonroof is huge, but at highway speeds it's very noisy and we usually end up closing it. The monotone Cayenne Red looks sharp, but if I had to do it over again I'd go with a regular XS.
Just one defect: The front windshield washer didn't work, but the rear one did. Reservoir was full. I took it in, it was diagnosed as a clogged "check valve," which was replaced. Covered under warranty.
I have sort of an antagonistic relationship with the climate control system, especially since colder weather set in. I leave it on manual because I like keeping control of everything, but even with the temp knob just a couple of notches above 65, it usually pumps out *very* hot air soon after warming up. I close the left-hand dash vent (which operates even when "floor" mode is selected) to avoid scalding my left hand on the wheel, but sometimes I turn it all the way down to 65 to shut off the hot air entirely. And I've never had the heat turned up even as far as halfway (75). Is this normal behavior? Would I be better off trying Auto mode? I'm used to the simple system on my Honda, where cold was cold, hot was hot and in between was, well, in between.
The fact that it's a powerful system sure comes in handy when I need to defrost the windshield though. That takes no time at all.
When I used the air conditioning this summer, the A/C seemed to vacillate in strength from minute to minute (again, on manual mode). Kind of annoying.
One question. Occasionally after hard acceleration (above 4k rpm) where the transmission downshifts, I detect a slight burning-oil smell. It dissipates quickly, and it's evident only after I hit the gas hard (often on a very short freeway on-ramp I use on the way to work). Is this something I should worry about? There are no oil spots on the garage floor.
#12852 of 18028 Heat/AC system by ballistic
Dec 04, 2003 (11:45 am)
even with the temp knob just a couple of notches above 65, it usually pumps out *very* hot air soon after warming up.Now that cold weather has arrived, I find myself setting mine at almost 75 for the first 10 minutes or so; then I turn it down to 68-69. During the whole drive, my right foot cooks, while my left one freezes (well, not quite, but the difference is very noticeable). My impression is that the Forester's capacity to consistently produce specified levels of heated (or cooled) air, and to distribute it evenly where desired (and not where not desired!), is markedly inferior to other cars I've owned.
I close the left-hand dash vent (which operates even when "floor" mode is selected)
I really don't like that. When I dial in "floor" mode, I don't want heat anywhere else. And unlike the left-right dashfront vents, which you at least can shut off, there's nothing you can do about the heat emerging (even in floor mode) from the little triangular left-and-right dashtop vents aimed at the windows, or from the defroster vents at the base of the windshield. Dumb. When/if I want heat high up (on the glass), I'll choose the defrost mode. Otherwise, I don't want any heat anywhere near my face, and I certainly don't expect to get any heated air at all in those upper areas when the mode I've selected says "foot".
When I used the air conditioning this summer, the A/C seemed to vacillate in strength from minute to minute (again, on manual mode). Kind of annoying.
I noticed that, too. Most cars I've owned have a "reserve" tank of refrigerant large enough to keep the system "blowing cold" during the intervals when the A/C compressor is cycled off; then the compressor comes back on and runs long enough to recharge the reserve. The vacillation you and I noticed makes me think there is no reserve at all, so that the system blows cold only when the compressor runs, and quickly stops blowing cold every time the compressor cycles off. On my XT, the difference (on a warm day) between blowing cold and blowing ambient was very noticeable, and not all that comfortable.
Overall, I'd say Subaru has quite a bit of redesign to do before the Forester's heating and A/C systems are up to par with the competition.
#12853 of 18028 Casey by c_hunter
Dec 04, 2003 (12:01 pm)
Just one bit of buyer's remorse: I'm not sure I'd get the premium package next time. The moonroof is huge, but at highway speeds it's very noisy and we usually end up closing it. The monotone Cayenne Red looks sharp, but if I had to do it over again I'd go with a regular XS.You may want to consider getting the moonroof wind deflector installed. My wife had the same exact complaint as you, so I ordered the deflector online (about $60 I think) and put it in. Makes a world of difference. Now we can use the moonroof on the highway and there is much less turbulence and noise inside the car. I don't care for the looks, but if it makes my wife happy, I'm happy!
As for the smell, I'd be curious to know if you smell it when the car is stationary, say when you're in neutral (with brake applied) and rev the engine up. That might help isolate the source. Also, it would be informative to know if the smell was coming out the tail pipe or from somewhere else. With the hood open, you may be able to spot some smoke if the burning was coming from the engine or something in contact with the exhaust (or even undercoating on the exhaust burning off). Subarus are known for having the smell of burnt undercoating when new, it usually wears off after a while
How short is your commute? It is possible that the car doesn't really warm up all the way during your typical driving, and it may take longer for all your undercoating to burn off the exhaust.
Craig
#12854 of 18028 Moonroof noise by rsholland
Dec 04, 2003 (12:07 pm)
I'm real curious about the new '05 Outback's moonroof. It's huge, but is a 2-piece affair, with the 25%-sized front section just popping up, and the back 75% retracting. I'm wondering if that unit is quieter than the Forester's moonroof?Bob
#12855 of 18028 by ateixeira
Dec 04, 2003 (12:09 pm)
It's more flexible, because you have a tilt feature. You tilt up the front portion. It's an even better design, IMO.-juice
#12856 of 18028 KILLER AIR BAGS: CHAPTER 3 by taxmanjeff
Dec 04, 2003 (2:03 pm)
Ballistic,I apologize for using the "I" word but in no way was I assessing your intelligence. To be "ignorant" of a particular subject merely indicates that one may not possess all the information and perspectives necessary to formulate a complete and balanced opinion of the said topic. Many reasonably intelligent people including myself are "ignorant" when it comes to certain topics so don't take it so personally pal.
Regarding my previous post you apparently missed my point(s) as well so I will reiterate and elaborate for your benefit.
There is a reason why virtually all vehicle manufacturers (apparently except Subaru) now install standard dual stage front air bags for both the driver and passenger...these are statistically safer for smaller adults in fender benders where a powerful air bag discharge is not necessary. As a volunteer EMT who is privy to state police accident records, and who has scraped more than a few people out of their vehicles I can attest first hand to the importance of reducing the explosive force of air bags when it is not needed. I have seen a number of properly belted in corpses, victims of KILLER air bags, that should have walked away from what were otherwise relatively mild collisions so I know what I am talking about from a realistic perspective. To personally see tragedies of this kind affects one considerably and gives one unique insights into a problem that cannot be entirely addressed by reading published statistics alone.
Originally air bags were designed with excessive explosive force to protect the idiots who refused to wear seat belts. In the early 1990's there was actually an air bag shortage which prompted manufacturers to install those annoying automatic seatbelts as a stop gap measure. "Next generation" and / or dual stage air bags (I tend to confuse the two...so much for my own "ignorance") came about to address the aforementoned dangers of the original design. Accordingly it is not clear to me why Subaru does not install the newer, safer dual stage air bags as standard equipment for both drivers and front seat passengers. Probably just a penny pinching maneuver. 'Nuff said. Happy Holidays...
Note to Juice: you may be right that your Forester has "second generation" air bags which are depowered versions of the original "killer" bags I previously alluded to. These are an improvement over the older design but are still a compromise...not enough power for severe crashes, too much power for minor impacts. However the Subaru of America representative I corresponded with could not or would not confirm this for me. He did tell me he would keep me updated regarding the specs for the '05 model but I'm not holding my breath.
- Jeff
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